I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg probably before. I don't know the story.[/quote]
🙄

Ah, I had hoped that this poster was here for good faith discussion. It seems I was wrong. The hyperbole is off the scale. Women's very valid concerns about single sex spaces are being handwaved away as usual. I'm waiting for the 'you're all transphobic bitches!' flounce.

I think you're getting defensive because you can see none of this makes any sense and can't find a way to argue that it does. You're stuck at "be kind" but only to males, not the women that will be harmed.

How can you disagree with mixed-sex toilets apart from allowing a few special males in? Either go the whole hog and call it mixed sex so everyone knows where they stand or have it be single-sex not single-gender (which means mixed-sex anyway).

@TheFairPrincess

It's not about their disability

It absolutely is. You cannot reduce people to their trans identity. This person could have done this on the street. What you people are doing is awful

More or less awful than Dolatowski being housed with women after conviction?

extract

SICKENED residents at a female-only hostel have hit out after a transgender sex offender was housed there.

Katie Dolatowski, 18, avoided a prison sentence for sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl in Morrisons, Kirkcaldy, and filming a 12-year-old over a toilet cubicle in Asda, Dunfermline.

Campaigners say women at the supported Fife accommodation - which has a shared bathroom - could have been put in danger while she was living there.

One resident in the unit for homeless offenders said: “This is a women’s hostel and it’s all women who work here. I feel sick and can’t stop thinking about what she has done.”

A spokeswoman for Women and Girls in Scotland said: “Katie Dolatowski has already taken advantage of access to female spaces to commit sexual assault.

“It is absolutely unacceptable that this person was being given the same opportunity again."

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3928585/transgender-sex-offender-female-only-fife-hostel-katie-dalatowski-furious-residents/

When my daughter was 9, I happily sent her on her own to the ladies' toilets because I was confident that there would be no males in there, except perhaps very young boys with mother or other woman, or very occasionally the cleaner. I felt she was safe there. Would I have sent her on her own to a mixed sex toilet? Absolutely not. I was uneasy about sending my son into a male toilet when he was 9 and too old to come into the ladies' with me and his sister.

I'm used to seeing men take offence at statements like this. They default to Not All Men Are Like That (NAMALT) and take it very personally. It's always depressing to see women doing likewise. This isn't about individuals. It's about trying to minimise risk for the vulnerable and to give vulnerable groups confidence to use certain services/spaces because they are guaranteed to be single sex.

*Just like how the actions of Claire Lyte don't mean lesbians should be barred from being tennis coaches.

Actions of individuals do not justify discrimination*

Exactly.

disprove a generalisation thatno-onecan identify as transgender and be a predator

Literally who said that any person identifying as trans could "not be a predator". Who??

You're not doing that. You're using awful examples of female victimisation, committed by individuals, while denying that you are not trying to represent all trans people as predators. It's literal concern trolling.

If you honestly believed that you were not using individuals to represent the whole group, you literally would not be posting about indiviudals, it wouldn't even factor in. You're just trying to hit people who disagree with awful triggering cases in order to "prove your point".

That is not what you are doing. You are justifying your own transphobia.

Yes,

It is absolutely unacceptable that this person was being given the same opportunity again.

This person.

Opportunity again.

Unacceptable.

Do you post rape articles committed by straight cis men to you friends and daughters before they go out on a date to remind them of what men could potentially do? No. So why do you think what you are doing is in any way acceptable?

It's literal concern trolling.

No, that's what you are doing. Mumsnet take a dim view people of calling other people trolls, so we might both be deleted here.

For the love of god, woman, stop clutching your pearls and read what people are saying to you. We want males excluded from female spaces, regardless of what they say about their gender identity. This is basic safeguarding. Why do you think women and girls don't deserve this?

Now that you have learned that allowing a particular tiny subset of male people to use toilets in line with their gender identity has facilitated opportunistic sexual assaults that could not have happened otherwise, how many assaults would be too many for you to accept it as a price of mixing the sexes?

At what number would you come down in support of separating toilets by sex?

[quote TheFairPrincess]@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg Stop it. Just stop it. You are being triggering and awful, you are exploiting women's pain at the hands of an individual and trying to abstract it to apply to all trans women (because let's face it, you don't give a shit about trans men), as if an individual can ever represent a community of people. It's absolutely foul I feel sick.

Should I pull out examples of black criminals to justify my racism?

Should I pull out examples of female serial killer to justify my misogyny?

It is NOT okay to do this. It is exploitative in the extreme. I refuse to change my principles of treating people like actual individual human beings in order to satisfy your transphobia. Oh my literal god.[/quote]
grow up

Katie was in the ladies because of his gender identity

YOU believe Katie should have been in the ladies

own it. you don't give a shit about that little girl

Oh and trying to imply that the fact Katie is disabled makes his gender identity less important that others ain't a good look either

Concern trolling does not mean trolling. It means using concern as a shield for your bigoted opinions in a disingenuous way.

I am not concern trolling because I am not pretending to be concerned about about a group of people in the name of tearing them down. I'm actively defending people who are being ripped apart and labelled sexual predators in the apparent name of feminism. I'm not buying it.

Ooh, have we had 'safeguarding is a transphobic dog whistle' yet.

No one is exempt from safeguarding because of individual cases and historical precedent. That's how safeguarding is informed and why it is applied. Single sex spaces protect women, that is why they are in place so that incidents cannot happen.

@TheFairPrincess

Yes,

It is absolutely unacceptable that this person was being given the same opportunity again.

This person.

Opportunity again.

Unacceptable.

Do you post rape articles committed by straight cis men to you friends and daughters before they go out on a date to remind them of what men could potentially do? No. So why do you think what you are doing is in any way acceptable?

So you oppose natal male sexual offenders being placed in women's facilities?

Do you post rape articles committed by straight cis men to you friends and daughters before they go out on a date to remind them of what men could potentially do?

Firstly, there's no such thing as "cis" unless you subscribe to gender identity ideology. It's literally meaningless, because I don't consider myself as a woman in any sort of bracket with MTF trans people, apart from being a human being.

Secondly, that's not what's happening here is it. This is a talk board, and we are discussing male people and why women need female only spaces. If we were discussing gender neutral toilets in general, you can be sure that people would reference examples of the type you mentioned,

I do not believe in toilets labelled mixed sex. I believe in people being able to use toilets of the sex they identify with. So trans women should be able to use the ladies and trans men should be able to use the mens

But they're not identifying as a different sex. They are identifying as a different gender. So as provision such as toilets is segregated by sex, (not gender) why on earth would transwomen use the women's toilets? 🤨

But that particular person was a sexual predator FairPrincess and yet you primary concern seems to be their feelings rather than the victim's welfare.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

blimey, who ordered the delivery of stupid?

how do these people think babies are made?

You get a lady hormone cell and a gentleman hormone cell and you put the hormones into an obliging receptacle that is currently identifying as a female and you ask the receptacle currently identifying as female to miraculously produce lots of other hormones and nutrients with its adult human female body parts specifically designed to nurture a human foetus for nine months..... oh damn I was doing so well, then reality took over. Sorry.

YOU don't have any right to tell me what I do and don't care about. You literally do not know me.

This is what you do, you cannot debate at all. It's just "hey, let me string out these cases of sick predators and blame their actions on all trans rights" and then when I point out how wrong what you are doing is, you literally try to paint me as some kind of child abuse sympathiser, it's pathetic! Literally laughable.

And why, because I said I don't agree that all trans women should be excluded automatically from any place in society labelled as single sex? You resort to saying I "don't give a shit about a little girl who was raped"?

You are sick.

To get back to the OP, yes, I do think it's a trend among children to be "cool", and year 6 children, who mainly think it's about clothes, will probably grow out it by the time they reach puberty. What concerns me are the children in their teens, often with other emotional issues, who are being confirmed as trans and encouraged to seek "help" from organizations like M3rmaids and sent on an irreversable medical pathway. That so many girls are seeking mastectomies is heartbreaking. OP, I do see hope in your intelligent children, may this nonsense pass quickly and truth prevail....

@TheFairPrincess - you have small children from another thread. Let's assume (am not asking you to out yourself!) that one of them is female. As this child grows up she discovers she's a really talented sportswoman. She is in the trials for a spot on the olympic team for her discipline. She doesn't make it. The person who gets the spot is a much older TW, born male, with the benefits of male puberty still present. Did your daughter deserve to miss out because the segregation of sex in sporting contest has been loosened to such an extent? Or does sex segregation not matter and women just have to try that much harder.

So your default position is that all transwoman should access women’s toilets until such a time as the bad apples offend against women in some way and get caught?

Well that looks easy. Not.

We can debate. A valid point was made which you don't have a coherent answer to.

*But what I meant was the whole toilet is one single lockable room. Like in a cafe where there's just one toilet and it has just the one door and one person goes in at a time, rather than a "ladies" which is a room full of toilets. Of course that wouldn't prevent all crime either but I think it would be better.

Piss all over the seat / floor
Hidden cameras
If out of the way ideal to drag someone into and assault them.
Takes up more space so less overall toilets for women...*

Yes, I agree with all this. I want single sex toilets.

However, unisex single cubicle toilets already exist all over the place - basically anywhere that only has one toilet. Disabled toilets are almost always like this too.

So what I'm saying is if there's not space for a third unisex toilet option, toilets like this may be the better option than having supposedly women's toilets that men can go in. If there is space for more than one toilet, there should be female only and unisex single lockable units. If there's space for three, then female, male and unisex.

Of course toilets are the tip of the iceberg anyway ...