I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

We have estimates of the number of transgender prisoners in the UK prison system and a remarkably high %age of them are in there for sexual offences. Almost all convicted sexual offenders are male, so we're talking about self-IDing transwomen (the ones with a GRC are already included in the figures for female prisoners). Now there are only two ways to explain this.

1. Many of them are lying about their gender identity in the hope of getting transferred to a women's prison.
2. Transwomen commit sexual offences at a higher rate than the general population.

One of those has to be true. My money's on 1.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

[BBC] Reality Check verdict: A government survey has counted 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, but the Ministry of Justice says these figures are not yet a reliable reflection of the true numbers. The MoJ says 60 of them have been convicted of one or more sexual offences but it didn't identify their gender. There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data.

It doesn't mean we can discriminate against an entire demographic.

Of course it does, sometimes discrimination is actively necessary. My local nursery discriminates on grounds of age. Disability benefit is paid only to those proven to be disabled, discriminating against the able bodied. Sex based provisions discriminate against the opposite sex, so does a lot of safeguarding.

Spaces are quite normally segregated by sex in every day life and have been for decades, and some women need them to remain so. Additional mixed sex spaces can be added which would meet all needs.

Not being funny but how can an individual's comfort be factored into law at a population level.

Again, this is why we have single sex spaces.

@TheFairPrincess

Not being funny but how can an individual's comfort be factored into law at a population level.

These threads always seem to end in circular conversations about toilets. Literally always.

fine, talk to me about Jessica Winfield

he raped 2 children

he's in women's prison now where he has made unwelcome advances to the women forced to live with him

is that ok?

You seem to think trans women are treated as "men" by society, as "fellow patriarchs". They are not.

Yeah, we're going to have to disagree there. It's funny whose feelings are important and whose are literally insignificant. Who gets a seat at the table and who doesn't.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg so you are using a case of disabled person to argue a general case against trans women?

Do you think that is fair and appropriate?

@TheFairPrincess

Ah so now we have it comparing women protecting themselves with racism.

I take it you haven’t seen the transwomen fetish Twitter feeds of transwoman going into toilets and wanking everywhere. Video after video after video…. But they just want to pee.

These threads always seem to end in circular conversations about toilets.

You brought up toilets, I think?

@TheFairPrincess

Most toilets have single lockable cubicle surely.

Most people just pop into toilets and pop out, we have to be realistic and proportionate. I used to go to a popular LGBTQ bar in my town lots of weekends, the toilets were unisex and there were no issues. Never felt threatened by the copious trans women in there.

Assuming everyone is uncomfortable in the presence of trans women all the time is just bizarre.

In all sincerity, how lovely for you that you have the privilege to be this naiive about the needs of other women.

May I suggest you do a bit of research and talking to other women with different life experiences, views and needs to your own? And think about a world that includes them too?

But what I meant was the whole toilet is one single lockable room. Like in a cafe where there's just one toilet and it has just the one door and one person goes in at a time, rather than a "ladies" which is a room full of toilets. Of course that wouldn't prevent all crime either but I think it would be better.

Piss all over the seat / floor
Hidden cameras
If out of the way ideal to drag someone into and assault them.
Takes up more space so less overall toilets for women...

Toilets don't match anyone's gender though. Otherwise there would be billions of them. I could actually handle that- but who is going to pay for them all ?

[quote TheFairPrincess]@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg so you are using a case of disabled person to argue a general case against trans women?

Do you think that is fair and appropriate?[/quote]
I feel it is fair and appropriate to use the case of a male assaulting a little girl by accessing women's toilets to argue against males accessing women's toilets

[quote TheFairPrincess]@ItsAllGoingToBeFine considering this is already the way toilets operate I trust that most people use them without abusing them. The potential for abuse is there, I'm not denying that, I just feel (as the law clearly agrees) that the likelihood of assault in a public toilet due to the ability of trans men and women to use them as they see fit is not the threat it is purported to be on here.[/quote]
As a society we take many steps to risk asses and safeguard certain situations. For example, adults are vetted before working with children or in secure locations such as airports. It is not discrimination to prevent certain people from accessing environments where they pose a risk to a vulnerable group or pose a security risk to the general public.

Whilst we cannot completely remove the threat we can take steps to reduce it as much as possible.

So let's go back to toilets. Whilst we cannot completely remove the threat of males abusing the system to harm females, we can take steps to reduce this happening. By allowing exceptions for some male bodied individuals, we are making it easier for those wishing to cause harm to abuse the system.

In this situations I used above, the majority is protected by preventing access to the minority. Sure not everybody with a criminal conviction will want to blow up an airport, but why take the risk? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In the case of toilets, the needs of females outweigh the needs of males, regardless of how they identify. Males already have their own spaces, other males should be making space for GNC males. If some males really need a safe space, this should be a third space.

Do you think that is fair and appropriate?

Do you think its fair or appropriate that this 18 yo male sexually assaulted a nine year old girl? It's not about their disability. Dolatowski should not have been in a women's toilet. Because it makes women and girls more vulnerable for males to access female spaces.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg Stop it. Just stop it. You are being triggering and awful, you are exploiting women's pain at the hands of an individual and trying to abstract it to apply to all trans women (because let's face it, you don't give a shit about trans men), as if an individual can ever represent a community of people. It's absolutely foul I feel sick.

Should I pull out examples of black criminals to justify my racism?

Should I pull out examples of female serial killer to justify my misogyny?

It is NOT okay to do this. It is exploitative in the extreme. I refuse to change my principles of treating people like actual individual human beings in order to satisfy your transphobia. Oh my literal god.

It's not about their disability

It absolutely is. You cannot reduce people to their trans identity. This person could have done this on the street. What you people are doing is awful

[quote TheFairPrincess]@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg Stop it. Just stop it. You are being triggering and awful, you are exploiting women's pain at the hands of an individual and trying to abstract it to apply to all trans women (because let's face it, you don't give a shit about trans men), as if an individual can ever represent a community of people. It's absolutely foul I feel sick.

Should I pull out examples of black criminals to justify my racism?

Should I pull out examples of female serial killer to justify my misogyny?

It is NOT okay to do this. It is exploitative in the extreme. I refuse to change my principles of treating people like actual individual human beings in order to satisfy your transphobia. Oh my literal god.[/quote]
I would argue it is absolutely not ok to dismiss the trauma of a little girl because it interferes with your personal politics and raises questions that you do not like.

And I would point out that your high principles of 'treating people like actual individual human beings' does not extend to females. Or apparently assaulted little girls.

No she isn't. She's making a clear point, and your performative hyperbole doesn't detract from it in the slightest. This is about the inappropriateness of males, any males and all males, regardless of identity, using female spaces where women expect privacy from the opposite sex, and are vulnerable.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg Stop it. Just stop it. You are being triggering and awful, you are exploiting women's pain at the hands of an individual and trying to abstract it to apply to all trans women (because let's face it, you don't give a shit about trans men), as if an individual can ever represent a community of people. It's absolutely foul I feel sick.

Should I pull out examples of black criminals to justify my racism?

Should I pull out examples of female serial killer to justify my misogyny?

It is NOT okay to do this. It is exploitative in the extreme. I refuse to change my principles of treating people like actual individual human beings in order to satisfy your transphobia. Oh my literal god.[/quote]
So to be clear, you are against single sex spaces now because it is unfair to exclude all men on the basis that a few are problematic?

@TheFairPrincess

It's not about their disability

It absolutely is. You cannot reduce people to their trans identity. This person could have done this on the street. What you people are doing is awful

To be clear its not about their disability or their trans identity. It is about their sex.

You cannot reduce people to their trans identity.

How am I doing that? You're making this about individuals! It isn't about individuals, it's about risk, safeguarding, privacy and dignity of women and girls.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg
"how could he have been removed before this?"

She shouldn't have, not on the basis of being trans. Just like how the actions of Claire Lyte don't mean lesbians should be barred from being tennis coaches.

Actions of individuals do not justify discrimination.

Should I pull out examples of black criminals to justify my racism?

If we were saying that no-one black could EVER be a criminal, it would be sensible to do so.

But we'renotsaying anything like that. We are citing articles to disprove a generalisation thatno-onecan identify as transgender and be a predator. We wouldn't be doing this if some quarters didn't keep claiming that it couldn't be true, and trying to create special exceptions to safeguarding rules for people who identify as transgender.

Males, regardless of gender identity, should not be in the same changing areas as females. According to recently compiled data, 99% of sexual offenders are male. 88% of those offendedagainstare female.

So to be clear, you are against single sex spaces now because it is unfair to exclude all men on the basis that a few are problematic?

Exactly. What is the difference?

It is not performative I am triggered by the multiple, patronising, reductive, obscene descriptions of assault aimed directly at me in order to make some kind of point?

My personal politics? Do you hear the irony of what you are saying? I am advocating for nothing because the position I hold is the position held in law. It is you who are posting with the aim to promote a different narrative. Please do not accuse me of being political, in a political conversation, when you are the ones bringing up named womens' and girls' individual trauma. And then claim that is is ME using it as a political weapon. How dare you.