I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Waitwhat23 we can still address those individuals without for example calling into question "trans identity", reducing trans people to a theoretical concept, or automatically excluding all trans people from anything designed for their actual gender.[/quote]
I'm unsure why this comment has been directed at me. Women are not denying that transgender people exist or that they are a theoretical concept. Women are fighting to keep their single sex spaces which are in place for women's dignity, privacy and safety. There are many spaces which do not have to be single sex but there are some spaces which do need to be single sex. It isn't to hurt people's feelings or invalidate them but for the safety of women. In the case of self ID for example, all someone has to say is 'I am a woman' and can then access single sex spaces. If this is done on a case by case basis, how is this done without it being 'transphobic'?

You people sure love to use fringe cases to justify complete exclusion of any and all trans women.

What should exclude transwomen is the risk that transwomen present - not just the risks of attacks and rapes, but the harm to women's feelings of safety and ability to access a space.

For this reason, a single-sex space like a hospital ward (when they were single sex) excludes males because of the general danger from males towards women.

Of course that is based on "fringe" cases in that most men do not attack women in public spaces all the time. But most men also understand that because there is a risk and that risk makes women uncomfortable in some situations, such as when you're undressing or asleep, then it's reasonable for there to be a female only space.

It is not insulting to men in general for female-only hospital wards to exist.

As transwomen have been shown to offend at the same rates as all men, and most transwomen keep their genitals, and many women feel uncomfortable with males in their spaces however they identify, it is reasonable to exclude TW from female-only spaces for the same reasons.

If men in general don't mind, why would TW in general mind?

I believe this is incredibly hyperbolic and not at all how the vast majority of women feel about public toilets

but what about some women? what about

• women who have suffered sexual violence
• women who are Muslim or Jewish
• women like me who just don't like to be in a vulnerable position around men they don't know

what about them?

What do you mean? In what way does inclusion of trans women render a space inaccessible to cis women?

For all the reasons we have single sex toilets in the first place.

Because we simply do not consider the labels of "man" and "woman" to be biological sex.

Do you accept that female bodied people exist and suffer discrimination, threat and disempowerment whatever their gender identity simply because of their biological sex?

And that the fact that it may not always be possible in a vanishingly small number of cases to identify biological sex does not take away the fact that for the vast majority of female people who can be identified as female do experience sex-based disempowerment, threat and violence because of it?

@TheFairPrincess

So while your unobtrusive transwoman is using a female only space, what would you like to do with the equally unobtrusive females that have just had that space rendered inaccessible to them?

I believe this is incredibly hyperbolic and not at all how the vast majority of women feel about public toilets.

Perhaps you could tell that to the girls attending mixed schools who are increasingly being told that from now on the toilets are gender neutral, which actually means mixed sex, and are just refusing to use them. In weeks when they have periods they aren't going to school at all, and the rest of the time they are damaging their health by refusing to drink water so they don't have to go to the loo during the school day.

Yah it makes them mixed sex but only in that women and trans women can use the same toilet, not that all and sundry are using the same toilet. I do not believe for a second you don't understand the distinction.

I do. But many people do not. And people's gender identity makes not a jot of difference to me, all males should stay out of female only spaces, like the respectful MTF trans people do.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine considering this is already the way toilets operate I trust that most people use them without abusing them. The potential for abuse is there, I'm not denying that, I just feel (as the law clearly agrees) that the likelihood of assault in a public toilet due to the ability of trans men and women to use them as they see fit is not the threat it is purported to be on here.

@TheFairPrincess

So while your unobtrusive transwoman is using a female only space, what would you like to do with the equally unobtrusive females that have just had that space rendered inaccessible to them?

I believe this is incredibly hyperbolic and not at all how the vast majority of women feel about public toilets.

Oh the old 'they don't exist'.

How many have you surveyed?

Read around here. You'll find plenty of women who cannot use mixed sex provisions. Many of them have Autism, a history of trauma, race or cultural or faith based barriers - remember diversity and the Equality Act and the eight other characteristics? Women are being impacted. Women are being excluded.

You can pretend not to look or call those women names if it enables the male people you are representing to have what they want and need. But don't call it inclusive because it isn't. The inclusion of males excludes some females. Those females do not matter less than TW.

The simple answer of course is to provide mixed sex womens spaces AND female only spaces. But that would require activists to recognise that female people are equally human to male ones.

@HexedBoogie can you please explain to me (in simple language as I'm obviously not getting it) how one can alter their biological sex?

@TheFairPrincess

But if your vision of a gender-norm free future

Woah. I'm certainly not the one arguing for a gender norm free future. It's GC feminists who reject gender norms.

I was commenting on one @HexedBoogie's posts not yours.

@TheFairPrincess

you haven't addressed the Katie Dolotawski case by case basis question

should Katie have been in the ladies or the gents?

was it fine for Katie to get the opportunity to shove a 9 year old girl around by the face?

It's not just about assault. It's about the fact that a woman entering a single-sex space will generally feel uncomfortable and vulnerable when that space isn't actually single-sex.

@Ereshkigalangcleg I don't agree and I don't believe that only these mythological predatory trans people use toilets that match their gender. Indeed, I'm sure there would be issues if that was the case.

Making someone who identifies as female, looks female, use a male bathroom is just gross to me. If they choose to then fine, but trying to declare it should be, actually trying to declare it is some kind of law, is just inhumane to me.

Let's move on from toilets or we'll get bogged down (ho ho) in it to the exclusion of all else.

If you believe, TheFair, in "case by case" when would it be reasonable to exclude a male trans person and what makes it not "transphobic" like all the other times?

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/unisex-toilets-period-shaming-sexual-harassment-schools-girls-womens-voices-wales-a8784226.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7834503/Female-staff-refuse-use-MoDs-new-15-000-gender-neutral-toilets-smelly.html

fairplayforwomen.com/toilet-provision-in-the-uk/

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/pupils-missing-school-because-dont-15839558

www.bbc.com/news/world-41999792

www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine that's a generalisation though and is also dependent on the whether anyone even notices. Surveys with purposefully leading questions do not rate highly in my book.

For the same reason you'd be wrong to use a homophobic slur to refer to a gay child rapist, or why it would be homophobic bigotry to use the gay child rapists as a reason why gay people in general should be sequestered to seperate spaces.

1. Pronouns are not slurs, and I think your comparison is so crass it is actually homophobic.

2. I made a post yesterday about this equivocation.

You seem to be implying that we are doing something akin to generalising that all gay men are child predators on the basis of one example.

But we'renotsaying that. We are citing articles to disprove a generalisation thatno-onecan identify as transgender and be a predator. We wouldn't be doing this if some quarters didn't keep claiming that it couldn't be true, and keep trying to create special exceptions to safeguarding rules for people who identify as transgender.

I never claimed gay malescouldn'tbe child predators- they can, just as straight men can. I just wanted them treated the same way straight males were. I wasn't arguing they shouldn't have to follow safeguarding rules.

Which is, funnily enough, what I want for males who identify as transgender now.

Post-pubescent males, regardless of gender identity, should not be in the same changing areas as females. According to recently compiled data, 99% of sexual offenders are male. 88% of those offendedagainstare female.

It is standard practice for women to take male children into the toilets with them, because we do not feel they are safe to go into the male toilets on their own. Do you think it is homophobic to prioritise the safety of male children over the feelings of adult men?

@TheFairPrincess

Yah it makes them mixed sex but only in that women and trans women can use the same toilet, not that all and sundry are using the same toilet. I do not believe for a second you don't understand the distinction.

How can we tell the difference between a transwoman and a man pretending to be a transwoman?

I don't agree and I don't believe that only these mythological predatory trans people use toilets that match their gender.

It's not about mythical predatory transpeople. It's about the fact that men will go to extraordinary lengths to abuse women, and pretending to identify as a woman is one of the easier ways.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Ereshkigalangcleg I don't agree and I don't believe that only these mythological predatory trans people use toilets that match their gender. Indeed, I'm sure there would be issues if that was the case.

Making someone who identifies as female, looks female, use a male bathroom is just gross to me. If they choose to then fine, but trying to declare it should be, actually trying to declare it is some kind of law, is just inhumane to me.[/quote]
I am trying to talk to you about an issue arising from a predatory transwoman using the toilet that matched his gender

you are ignoring me

of does a 9 year old girl being sexually assaulted not count as an issue now?

@Blibbyblobby

Because we simply do not consider the labels of "man" and "woman" to be biological sex.

Do you accept that female bodied people exist and suffer discrimination, threat and disempowerment whatever their gender identity simply because of their biological sex?

And that the fact that it may not always be possible in a vanishingly small number of cases to identify biological sex does not take away the fact that for the vast majority of female people who can be identified as female do experience sex-based disempowerment, threat and violence because of it?

Yeah, I do accept that cis women suffer discrimination and disempowerement, often imposed on them because of their sex. It is not strictly because of biological sex though, as trans women face much of the same discrimination, and many of the same issues.

It is your refusal to even acknowledge the shared struggles that prevents any real solidarity.

I don't agree and I don't believe that only these mythological predatory trans people use toilets that match their gender. Indeed, I'm sure there would be issues if that was the case.

I didn't say they were "predatory", I said they don't respect women's privacy and dignity. Don't conflate the two please.

I'm afraid I skipped from page 5 to here. Can't believe @HexedBoogie is still going on. They sound either not very bright or very young. I'd like to ask them a straight question.
a) If you are born female, would you be comfortable sharing a shower with a person born male, even if you're on your period or have newly developed breasts? Or would you be embarrassed and uncomfortable?
b) If you are born male, do you think people who are born female should be happy to share a shower with you even if they're on their period or have newly developed breasts? Would you be happy to perhaps make them embarrassed and uncomfortable?
I'm thinking of adolescents in this scenario.

Surveys with purposefully leading questions do not rate highly in my book.

I've not seen any with purposefully leading questions. I have noted that acceptance of transwomen in women's spaces are lower when it is explained that
a) a transwoman is actually a male identifying a woman, not a woman who is trans.
b) the only requirement of being trans is to say that it is so.