I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

The posters on this board constantly suggest third spaces as a option to make sure that transgender people do not have to use the toilet they are uncomfortable with which also gives a single sex option for women who need that spaces for a variety of different reasons.

We are constantly told that this is transphobic because it is 'othering'. What are your views on third spaces @TheFairPrincess ?

The 'bloody toilets' are quite useful to women. Many of whom cannot share with males. So if you admit transwomen you're excluding women.

How about we don't exclude women from women's toilets, but offer additional unisex spaces to anyone who doesn't want to use toilets which correlate to their sex, plus anyone who isn't bothered?

Everyone happy, right?

While I can totally understand a pre pubescent girl wanting a way "out" I don't think it's healthy to tell them they actually can opt out of puberty, its an important biological process, not just physically but mentally and emotionally too.

I don't understand what identifying as a boy means, but I understand that children learn their way in the world through role play and mimicking those they look.up to. Like toddlers wanting to be "mummies" or children wanting to be superheros or animals.

I think things will change when they get to high school and encounter a whole new set of challenges.

I've asked what would make a successful case?

Still don't think this question warranted that response. You obviously think toilets should be mixed sex. Why not say that?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg I completely agree with that. Being female defines my existence in those situations. I don't think most transwomen would seek those services though. Honestly I do not agree most transwomen seek access to those spaces.

or perceived as a thread because you look like a man in the ladies?
What does that even mean? How do you propose to eliminate this on a "case by case" basis?
The threat from a biological male in a female toilet is real.

Because we simply do not consider the labels of "man" and "woman" to be biological sex.

Unfortunately you do not get to unilaterally change the meaning of words and the vast majority of people know that man = adult human female, and woman = adult human female.

Ah yes, the idea that "you can always tell". But guess what, you wouldn't be able to tell if we were to let trans women were transition in their childhood. Which is precisely why we should let trans kids medically transition. So that once they grow into trans adults, people like you can't use the disfigurement caused by going through the wrong puberty to dehumanize them and justify discrimination against them.

Drivel. Nobody goes through the wrong puberty. Puberty is an absolutely essential physiological process during which the brain matures as well as various other organs of the body. You are advocating for a medical experiment which nobody can possibly know is safe for these children, and which there is excellent reason to believe will shorten their lives and lead to many medical complications, e.g. osteoporosis, which will give them a much reduced quality of life.

We do know for sure it will result in their sterility. No child who has not gone through puberty is capable of giving informed consent to that. There are strong indications that it will destroy their ability to have a normal sexual response. No child who hasn't yet gone through puberty can understand what that means, and again, they can't give informed consent.

Mixed sex toilets are a very different prospect when you're the only woman in there with one or more males, late at night.

@Ereshkigalangcleg You may not think that my response was warranted but as an autonomous woman I am free to respond how I feel with my own reactions and feelings, surely.

I do not believe in toilets labelled mixed sex. I believe in people being able to use toilets of the sex they identify with. So trans women should be able to use the ladies and trans men should be able to use the mens.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

On a case by case basis

let's talk about your case by case basis @TheFairPrincess

Katie Dolotowski was out with his carer. They let him go off and use the women's toilets at a supermarket because it matches his gender identity

once in there he grabbed a 9 year old girl by the face, pushed her into a cubical and ordered her to take her trousers off

how would your 'case by case basis' have kept Katie in the gents and protected that little girl?

I don't think Katie should have been discriminated against on the basis of being trans. She should simply be punished for her actions as an individual.

Yes, individual sexual predators exist. The actions of individuals, however, do not justify discrimination against the entire demographic they're part of.

There are lesbian sexual predators who committed similar crimes. Their actions would not justify discrimination against lesbians either.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@GreyhoundG1rl Do I need to answer that for you?

A trans person unobtrusively receiving services with dignity and respect?

Popping to the loo without being sexually harassed for looking like a woman in the mens, or perceived as a thread because you look like a man in the ladies?

What do you want me to say? That there's no way a transgender person can ever use anything designed to be accessed by the gender they identify as, even a bloody toilet? Sounds very bigoted to me.[/quote]
Sigh. Ok.

So while your unobtrusive transwoman is using a female only space, what would you like to do with the equally unobtrusive females that have just had that space rendered inaccessible to them?

The bigotry is the absolute inability to face that this excludes some female people from any spaces, resources or services at all in able to enable male people to have their preferred choice from all the spaces, resources and services. You won't admit it but you actually believe those female people and their exclusion does not matter so long as male people have the special care and access that they need.

Your prejudice against female humans is something I find equally discomforting to listen to. I believe in solutions that work for everyone, and removing all female sex based provision to benefit males is not working for everyone at all. It just proves that to many people male humans are intrinsically more valuable than female ones.

Which interestingly enough is how our public toilets work.

Honestly I do not agree most transwomen seek access to those spaces.

I don't know how to put this more kindly, but educate yourself. Your posts suggest that you are both unaware of the vastly expanded definition of "trans" and unaware of what TRAs are fighting for.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg I completely agree with that. Being female defines my existence in those situations. I don't think most transwomen would seek those services though. Honestly I do not agree most transwomen seek access to those spaces.[/quote]
well i deal with the nuts and bolts of menstruation in the ladies toilets. on occasions washing blood from my hands or checking if leaking has marked my clothes.

you seem to want males to feel free to use woman's toilets though?

I do not believe in toilets labelled mixed sex. I believe in people being able to use toilets of the sex they identify with. So trans women should be able to use the ladies and trans men should be able to use the mens.

So you believe toilets should be mixed sex but not labelled as mixed sex? why? Surely women should be informed?

So while your unobtrusive transwoman is using a female only space, what would you like to do with the equally unobtrusive females that have just had that space rendered inaccessible to them?

I believe this is incredibly hyperbolic and not at all how the vast majority of women feel about public toilets.

@Artichokeleaves
"So while your unobtrusive transwoman is using a female only space, what would you like to do with the equally unobtrusive females that have just had that space rendered inaccessible to them?"

What do you mean? In what way does inclusion of trans women render a space inaccessible to cis women?

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Ereshkigalangcleg You may not think that my response was warranted but as an autonomous woman I am free to respond how I feel with my own reactions and feelings, surely.

I do not believe in toilets labelled mixed sex. I believe in people being able to use toilets of the sex they identify with. So trans women should be able to use the ladies and trans men should be able to use the mens.[/quote]
That makes the toilets mixed sex 🤦‍♀️

@Ereshkigalangcleg this is literally how UK public toilets already work.

I don't think Katie should have been discriminated against on the basis of being trans. She should simply be punished for her actions as an individual.

ah, so the 9 year old girl who was sexually assualted should suck it up, the snowflake? Katie's gender identity is more important that her safety?

what an absolutely superb human being you are portraying yourself as hex

Yah it makes them mixed sex but only in that women and trans women can use the same toilet, not that all and sundry are using the same toilet. I do not believe for a second you don't understand the distinction.

Because we simply do not consider the labels of "man" and "woman" to be biological sex.

You can't unilaterally change the meaning of fundamental words. We need words for 'adult human female' and 'adult human man'. Every language on earth has those words and has always had those words. We have words for adult female/male of every other species. Why would we not need words for those things in our own species?

I do not believe in toilets labelled mixed sex. I believe in people being able to use toilets of the sex they identify with. So trans women should be able to use the ladies and trans men should be able to use the mens.

Why do you disagree with mixed sex toilets? How does a woman distinguish a transwoman from a predatory male?

Well yes, a few males feel free to use the ladies' because they don't respect women's privacy and dignity, I suppose.