UK academic sues university after losing role in critical race theory row

[RoyalCorgi]

Guardian story:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/16/uk-academic-sues-university-losing-role-critical-race-theory-row-leeds-beckett

This is pertinent here for two reasons. One is that the academic who is suing Leeds Beckett is using the argument that "critical race theory" is a protected belief, using the Forstater case as a precedent:

"In June, finding that gender-critical views were a protected belief, the employment appeals tribunal said only views akin to nazism or totalitarianism were unworthy of protections for rights of freedom of expression and thought under the Equality Act."

The other is that critical race theorists tend to support the trans/queer theory agenda. In this particular case the academic in question was apparently sacked from her advisory role by Leeds Beckett University after her organisation tweeted to a black person first that he was a "house Negro" and then that he was a "coconut". Apparently these terms are part of standard discourse in critical race theory and so should be protected under the law.

And there was me thinking they were just terms of racist abuse...

This is a very interesting discussion - thank you to everyone on it. The example of being on time (and another recently in the press - that writing correct English or employers requiring it) could be racist. (I suppose if we were chatting in a group of men they might be saying women always being late getting ready to go out and doing their make up and changing their dress at the last minute was also a sexism issue too - not that I am like that, I am little miss punctual)

There are certainly cultural issues about being on time or not - our worst example was a lovely holiday in Jamaica and we got ourselves through breakfast at the hotel early and everyone including very tired teenagers was there at 9am bang on time for the arranged hire car. At 11am they indicated it might come soon as if that were okay. We obviously cancelled and had a dreadful start to our day and the car hire people seemed very rude to us that we would drag ourselves from bed so early bust a gut and were going to pay them and a 9am car hire could not arrive until 11am. I am sure that is not usual there but these were the words they used whilst smiling about the delay "Jamaica time". My pregnant child says she cannot believe at the NHS hospital she goes how late people are, 2 hours late even ( no one seems to be british born where she goes although that is just ancedote).

So obviously people like I am cannot abide people being late and vote with our feet or our money when people treat us like that. Others might think we were awful for not accepting a cultural norm,

However I accept the point above that it would be appalling when hiring a new member of staff to assume because they were a certain colour they might not be early for work every day! I don't thikn I would ever assume that despite our experience in Jamaica (never mind in Iran where I went to speak at conferences twice and a 2pm start of the afternoon lecture I was given would often be pushed to 3pm and the lunch break be much longer without any discussion - just delay delay delay - I went with the flow but I still ended bang on time at 5pm)

So obviously people like I am cannot abide people being late and vote with our feet or our money when people treat us like that. Others might think we were awful for not accepting a cultural norm,

Yes, this gets to the crux of it. The critical theory people would view the European norm of precise time keeping and the Jamaican norm of relaxed time keeping as equally valid. They would see the insistence by people in Western cultures that precise time keeping is the correct and superior way of doing things as a form of "white supremacy" that disadvantages people from cultures with relaxed time keeping norms.

And before anyone jumps down my throat again, I'm not saying I personally agree with this. I suspect in reality precise time-keeping is more a norm of fast-paced, industrialised socities (irrespective of race) than a norm specific to white Europeans.

I also think if you're an opponent of a particular viewpoint it's very easy to mistinterpret that viewpoint to make it look ridiculous and stupid, rather than giving it a fair hearing.

This is true but, as can be seen from numerous examples, it's the case that some proponents of CRT are arguing exactly as described.

I spent a very long time assuming things like TWAW was being misunderstood here in the same was. It took numerous examples and experiencing it personally before I realised that some people were not being metaphorical.

Yes, this gets to the crux of it. The critical theory people would view the European norm of precise time keeping and the Jamaican norm of relaxed time keeping as equally valid.

but that’s the crux of it the woke Rasict types view black people as Jamaican or West Indian we are British -English north Irish,Scottish or Welsh were not West Indian

We have been born and raised here they presume we can’t keep time because they don’t see us as the same as them English

You can identify how you like as the transtaliban have shown us however address of your birth on your passport doesn’t lie

This denial of fact a reality has gone we off
I have the right to say I am West Indian as I have a right to say I am Australian

I was born in neither place and for people to blanket prescribe lazy stero types to black people whom very well may have never even visited the West Indies and who are English/British and born on these shores is just

But they do it and don’t even bat a eye lid at their Racist thinking

@Mango1982 It also seems that black people are not expected to be as intelligent and able to work out how to live within the country they are in (even if they were born there). They don't really see you as one of them, as a person that can think for yourself, you're an outsider and always will be. It seeks division and I can't see anything good coming of it.

@Mango1982

Yes, this gets to the crux of it. The critical theory people would view the European norm of precise time keeping and the Jamaican norm of relaxed time keeping as equally valid.

but that’s the crux of it the woke Rasict types view black people as Jamaican or West Indian we are British -English north Irish,Scottish or Welsh were not West Indian

We have been born and raised here they presume we can’t keep time because they don’t see us as the same as them English

This comes back to how much is about race and how much, in the uk, is about immigration and cultures of other countries? It is not ok to treat a black person differently. Is it also not ok to say 'this is our culture, in the uk you must accept our culture'? (and vice versa in another country)

As for timekeeping: Japan's trains have this down to a fine art.

There is a lot of debate about the "Protestant Work Ethic" Theory.

Some say it is down to the theology of individualism without the need to seek forgiveness via intermediaries. Others suggest that greater literacy that comes from reading your own Bible is a boon. Others put it down to the weather.

Certainly British Afro-Carribbeans are a good deal more Protestant than most of the population.

Sorry I am extremely late to this thread. Been meaning to post but kept getting distracted with other topics.

It is shocking how some people think it is acceptable to use racial and derogatory slurs at those who do not agree with their ideological viewpoint. They are incapable of arguing their actual position, so resort to juvenile taunts and smears.
The notion that black people have no agency and they all think the same or agree with the same views is such a racist one. It's shameful that these kinds of attitudes are gaining in popularity among so called 'liberal' circles. Nothing good can come from it in the long-term.

Anyway, what reminded me to post on this thread was this fantastic essay / article that captures the difference between the traditional liberal worldview and the CRT worldview. I do think they are fundamentally incompatible and irreconcilable. Although I support people's right to believe in CRT and preach it, I don't think the ideology itself should be anywhere near the levers of power and law, even though that is its explicit aim. There are plenty of ideologies that are incompatible with modern, liberal Western democracies and I think CRT should be one of them.

But that's my personal view. This article is long but well worth the read though.

freeblackthought.substack.com/p/why-did-critical-race-theory-emerge

I haven't read the rest of this thread, but if anyone is interested in pushing back on the influence of CRT in the UK, there are some new organisations that are trying to do just that.

Don't Divide Us

The Equiano Project

I think it's important that more people from ethnic minority backgrounds speak up on these kinds of issues, as plurality of opinion is vital, especially if there are strong disagreements with ideological views and narratives. The impression that all 'people of colour' agree with the tenets and goals of CRT is a damaging one.

Good post Nonnymouse. Helen Pluckrose has also set up a discord group to help people push push back on this issue, amongst others, in the workplace.

counterweightsupport.com/

[quote Jorriss]Good post Nonnymouse. Helen Pluckrose has also set up a discord group to help people push push back on this issue, amongst others, in the workplace.

counterweightsupport.com/[/quote]
Yes! Thanks Jorriss. The Counterweight group is especially useful because it provides pragmatic help and support in pushing back on CRT-based policies being implemented in the workplace etc.

NonnyMouse1337

Well said

Good points including on our example of being on time. My culture (and money or lack of money) depends on people being on time. If I were bored and trying to fill the day in and loving sitting around waiting for people to turn up whilst having a chat that would be fine but I am not. If people do not turn up for an interview or conference call or work thing then they will be cut dead in terms of my money and time and future business. I think it would be a bit unfair to accuse people of racism for that however and hopefully no one is doing so. If a client is prepared to pay me for every minute they are late for a call then I am happy to be paid whilst tapping the desk impatiently having planned my whole day around something happening at exactly that time. Swiss, Japanese, Germans, Britons and plenty of others do things on time. In fact in Lagos twice on business everything was on time. It was only in Iran that that was not so for me in my own limited personal experience.

In the UK I hope it is okay to say to work with me you must be on time, not 5 minutes late, not 10 minutes late but on time or a bit early. If not you are out on your ear. If it is your culture to be late then go and work for a business which is of that culture and does not mind people being late.

Now we have to live with people of all kinds of cultures in the UK and sometimes that causes a clash in all kinds of areas. Eg my own bug bear is noise at night In some Swiss apartment blocks you cannot even flush the loo after 10pm to be considerate to others and I like that.

@NotDavidTennant

Yet people manage to go to all these places and adapt to the local customs.

Yes, but the point people are trying to make by highlighting this stuff is to question who gets to decide what the local customs are in the US. They're not saying "African-Americans are incapable of being on time" they're staying "Why should African-Americans have to follow the time-keeping norms of people of white European heritage and not the other way around?"

It's a disingenuous point though, in most cases. In places like the US there has not been some completely different sense of time management among different ethnic groups. There are millions of black Americans who have always gone to their jobs and schools on time and never considered that this was some sort of cultural imposition.

And even in places like Africa of South America where there are real differences in custom, schoolchildren show up for class in the morning, and society in general operates within certain expectations for different kinds of activities. University lecturers do actual lecture, students need to be there to hear them, nurses show up for their shifts, etc.

The claims that there is some kind of unfairness in the US with regards to expectations for being on time always seems to be in terms of places like Evergreen College, where it's about allowing some people to avoid their work without taking a hit to their grades or wages.

I mean, sure, the US could have developed a culture with African approaches to time perception. But they didn't. It's not a more or less moral approach, it's just the outcome of the historical process that actually occurred. Like a thousand other things in every place people live around the world.

Even all UK culture is not actually "on time means being there at the time I say". Yes, for work and classes, children's events, concerts usually.

But if you are invited to a party, when you really ought to arrive may very well be 10 minutes to half an hour or more later, and if you arrive on time you will be too early and some might think you are rude. And the rules on this can be very finely divided in terms of things like region or social class.

So there can be a need to accommodate in some way when you have people who are somehow displaced from their normal group.

What I think is interesting though is that there are always rules - it's not just about individuals doing what they want. The rule may say, come an hour later, or anytime within three days of the time appointed, but it isn't up to an individual to decide that.

That's true - the "8 for 8.15" or "8 for 8.30" dinner invitation etc.

The interesting bit is to what extent we excuse people where our dominant culture eg in regards to work says one thing and theirs is different and when do we change the dominant culture and/or when should it make allowances for the non-dominant ones (eg the very old exception from motorcycle helmets for sikhs in the UK which seems to have worked out perfectly well and I can understand and other than perhaps meaning more work in A&E when they fall off the bikes does not really affect the dominant culture and makes a huge difference to the sikhs).

Whereas - even if your written English is awful and written English is a key part of the job we will change the application rules for you because of your culture and background - is that okay? Is it okay if that lower standard applies to everyone even white British who could not be bothered to learn spelling and grammar in school or had a very difficult home life?

I would say there are fairly straightforward, sensible, effective, and kind ways of deciding when and how to accommodate change or exceptions where indicated, such as when a person does not know the local convention (tell them) or is struggling to adapt (help them and be patient as much as you can.) But just deciding to change a whole nation's sense of something as intuitive as what counts as on time, or deciding that some students can pass courses without bothering to attend classes, is not sensible, effective, or even really kind. That's not saying that it's a better way to do things, it would be the same if the situation were reversed.

Reading with intrigue

I think it will depend on the local convention. We have some local areas near me where people double park in the middle of the street and it is almost chaos and looks like I have seen in some countries abroad. Obviously I would rather that were not so but it is not a huge deal. Whereas my London borough has been awarded a special grant to help stop female genital mutilation (although I am not sure how much that is an issue here) so if that is happening here in my view that cultural norm is objectively wrong.

I have a personal beef against litter being dropped and have a bag in my car where I put it just on the few streets near me every day. I have not done a survey of which cultures drop more litter however. I also do not like noise at night but even that it is hard to be "fair" as older people around here are more likely to be white and young people of all cultures make more noise, although I do think we have some cultures around here where noise at night is more their norm. Even things like fireworks which in the UK used to be 5 November is now on many nights a year so I cannot get to sleep or I have to close my window and shove in sometimes painful ear plugs.

The issue for those of us who have not moved but the areas where we live have changed by those who moved here is we are not the other, different so our majority culture then has become the minority one and what effects that has. Obviously it does not bother me much or I would just do a "white flight" and move to somewhere which is not minority white etc. So I suppose given where I live the issues of how cultures live together in the UK peacefully (we all do by and large) is perhaps more of a day to day issue than for someone in rural Northumberland.

The issue of which cultural characteristics are objectively better or right is very interesting.

Great thread - thanks to all of you.

I am interested in how CRT is highlighting a big cultural clash between the UK and the US. The US is expecting us to take CRT on board and many academics are doing just that, therefore when we don't, we are seen as bigots and racists. Our society has a great deal of variety and I'm sure statistically we have more of Asian heritage than African or afro/Caribbean. Asian ethnic groups made up the second largest percentage of the population (at 7.5%), followed by Black ethnic groups (at 3.3%), Mixed/Multiple ethnic groups (at 2.2%) and Other ethnic groups (at 1.0%) and yet the discussion is about the US because of slavery. The UK has had some slavery but our culture rests on serfdom which is different (slavery being ownership of the person) serfdom being tied to the land. These make for very different cultural norms.

I am surprised that we are importing a theory (academically) without question and what may start to solve an issue in the US (but I have doubts) is unlikely to solve an issue in the UK. I haven't seen anything yet, in CRT which can be wholly aligned with the UK.

I wonder if this is why there has been more awareness in the UK of the effects of e.g. TWAW because culturally, there isn't a good fit.

In a sense you could argue it is racist of the US to impose its cultural norm (black slavery and the results of that) on a very different country - UK.

However the more general issues of cultural relativism and whether some things are objectively always morally wrong even if they are fine in a different culture/country are broader than a specific US theory relating to race I suppose.

In the UK we often find black Christians from the Caribbean and Nigeria have a lot more in common with white Christians in the UK - more shared culture, than say Muslim and Hindu immigrants (although of course that is a result of the Christianity imposed first on my own white ancestors probably to some extent against their will about 1500 years ago and then by white rulers in the Caribbean and Nigeria.

I think the question of inposing CRT on the UK or Europe can be overblown. It's true it makes even less sense. But it's not like it's being accepted across the board in the US either. And not across the board even by minorities. If you look at all these parents rebelling against school boards in the US they are not by any means all white, or even all middle class. It's very much a matter of university people trying to export this stuff an impose it on the population as a whole, and they've been somewhat successful with the middle class university educated cohort and businesses, but less so with others.

although of course that is a result of the Christianity imposed first on my own white ancestors probably to some extent against their will about 1500 years ago and then by white rulers in the Caribbean and Nigeria¡

Which in turn was imposed upon our white ancestors by people from the middle east - who at the same time went into africa, persia and india.

We also had roads and central heating imposed on us but, like the good celts and picts we were, we got rid of these cultural impositions when the Roman's left. Phew!