UK academic sues university after losing role in critical race theory row

[RoyalCorgi]

Guardian story:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/16/uk-academic-sues-university-losing-role-critical-race-theory-row-leeds-beckett

This is pertinent here for two reasons. One is that the academic who is suing Leeds Beckett is using the argument that "critical race theory" is a protected belief, using the Forstater case as a precedent:

"In June, finding that gender-critical views were a protected belief, the employment appeals tribunal said only views akin to nazism or totalitarianism were unworthy of protections for rights of freedom of expression and thought under the Equality Act."

The other is that critical race theorists tend to support the trans/queer theory agenda. In this particular case the academic in question was apparently sacked from her advisory role by Leeds Beckett University after her organisation tweeted to a black person first that he was a "house Negro" and then that he was a "coconut". Apparently these terms are part of standard discourse in critical race theory and so should be protected under the law.

And there was me thinking they were just terms of racist abuse...

British Racism is a thing all in itself. It is subtle and makes distinctions between different sorts of folk. The British "Indian" army took Muslims, Sikhs and Nepali Gurkhas, but not weedy little Indian Hindu vegetarians who were deemed insufficiently warlike. Ditto in Africa where some were classed as warriors (Like the Luo in the Kings African Rifles) but most were deemed hewers of wood and drawers of water, who when they volunteered for WW2, were set to work digging latrines.

There is an interesting segment in the US educational film for the GIs coming to Britain where they are urged not to address any black men in British uniform as 'boy' or they will soon regret it.

People of African heritage rather than Caribbean heritage may (at the moment) do better in the establishment but either one of them misses a penalty for England the racist howling doesn’t discriminate.
Obviously not all black people are the same, or from the same race or the same culture. Some of you sound like you have just realised this, and want to tell others, like it’s news. It reminds me of when a man goes “did you know, a woman can be both pretty AND funny!” and thinks he doesn’t sound like a sexist twat..
And I’m well aware of the history of immigrants in this country, being of that background myself, all I know is that while there are many different cultures within the thousands of immigrants that came, the only thing you needed in the 80s to have dog shit shoved through your letterbox and NF spray painted on your wall was brown skin.
That’s not “essentialist” that’s just fact.
I am not saying I am a fan of CRT- I haven’t read enough so don’t really know, just that it doesn’t seem so different to radical feminism: Females are disadvantaged because they are women, because of childbirth and other biological facts, this is structurally embedded, some women rise to CEO but usually at the expense of something (kids or relationship). The systems need tearing down and re- building so women are not trying to live life according to structures put there by men which set them up to fail.
And yes, sex is binary, race not so, although “ white” and “ not white” is pretty binary. I’m just saying, given that this board is very rad fem, given everything I have read on here, it’s interesting that there is so much denial of racism and panicking about CRT when there seem to be clear parallels to me.

it doesn’t seem so different to radical feminism

Here's one difference. In the US particularly, and also in the UK, institutions have invited CRT in and are configuring themselves to enable CRT to become widely embedded and to have considerable influence.

It's not the fact that people are free to choose to follow CRT, it's the manifestations of what this means. Say "I won't follow radical feminism" in your institution and see the people look on in bemusement. Then try saying "I won't follow CRT".

given that this board is very rad fem

I'm not sure that this board is as rad fem is it once was though.

Increasingly I see people drawn here by the trans issue who are operting more from an "anti-woke" perspective and who see things like trans rights activism, critical race theory and perhaps even some aspects of radical feminism itself as part of a common front of "woke" activism that they oppose. These tend to be the people who dislike the concept of privelige, not the rad fems.

I think I agree with that DavidTennant. Seems to be a definite agenda, and not necessarily one that is about women’s rights in particular.

@Blakes77

I think I agree with that DavidTennant. Seems to be a definite agenda, and not necessarily one that is about women’s rights in particular.

How much is that affected by the way these boards are managed and censored?

This is such a fascinating discussion, it's helping me start to understand the debates so much. @Blakes77 CRT seems to have significant overlaps with rad fem to me too which is why I think I am aligned with many of its basic principles. But then there's something odd because commentators I understand as being aligned with CRT do not seem to be aligned with the principles of rad fem and are for example very happy to say TWAW. Which I not so comfortable with. So how is it that they can 'see' structural disadvantage in one place but not in another. The trouble with all of this for me is that it's like trying to hold jelly tight in your hand without any escaping. Impossible. And similarly it feels as though making CRT something I either agree with or don't is impossible. I think it was @nauticant up threat who said take bits and reject others, including specific interpretations. That seems like the only approach as I read more.

Females are disadvantaged because they are women, because of childbirth and other biological facts

Right here you have a clear and deeply significant difference with race. And for that matter, with class in the Marxist sense.

Suggesting that recognizing the difference is about some other agenda is bs. Any radical feminist worth their salt understand this. Others who don't have essentially embraced the feminist version of CRT which isn't a good thing. And yes, there are rad fems who fall into that error, whatever they call themselves. If you don't start with material reality you aren't using a marxist class analysis, you are doing something else.

’m just saying, given that this board is very rad fem, given everything I have read on here, it’s interesting that there is so much denial of racism and panicking about CRT when there seem to be clear parallels to me.
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Today 11:21 nauticant

it doesn’t seem so different to radical feminism

Here's one difference. In the US particularly, and also in the UK, institutions have invited CRT in and are configuring themselves to enable CRT to become widely embedded and to have considerable influence.

It's not the fact that people are free to choose to follow CRT, it's the manifestations of what this means. Say "I won't follow radical feminism" in your institution and see the people look on in bemusement. Then try saying "I won't follow CRT".
Bookmark

Today 11:37 NotDavidTennant

given that this board is very rad fem

I'm not sure that this board is as rad fem is it once was though.

Increasingly I see people drawn here by the trans issue who are operting more from an "anti-woke" perspective and who see things like trans rights activism, critical race theory and perhaps even some aspects of radical feminism itself as part of a common front of "woke" activism that they oppose. These tend to be the people who dislike the concept of privelige, not the rad fems.
Bookmark

Today 12:00 Blakes77

I think I agree with that DavidTennant. Seems to be a definite agenda, and not necessarily one that is about women’s rights in particular.
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Today 12:44 Tibtom

Blakes77
I think I agree with that DavidTennant. Seems to be a definite agenda, and not necessarily one that is about women’s rights in particular.
How much is that affected by the way these boards are managed and censored?
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Today 13:26 upthefrogs

This is such a fascinating discussion, it's helping me start to understand the debates so much. @Blakes77 CRT seems to have significant overlaps with rad fem to me too which is why I think I am aligned with many of its basic principles. But then there's something odd because commentators I understand as being aligned with CRT do not seem to be aligned with the principles of rad fem and are for example very happy to say TWAW. Which I not so comfortable with. So how is it that they can 'see' structural disadvantage in one place but not in another. The trouble with all of this for me is that it's like trying to hold jelly tight in your hand without any escaping. Impossible. And similarly it feels as though making CRT something I either agree with or don't is impossible. I think it was @nauticant up threat who said take bits and reject others, including specific interpretations. That seems like the only approach as I read more.
Bookmark

Today 13:56 LobsterNapkin

Females are disadvantaged because they are women, because of childbirth and other biological facts

Right here you have a clear and deeply significant difference with race. And for that matter, with class in the Marxist sense.

Suggesting that recognizing the difference is about some other agenda is bs. Any radical feminist worth their salt understand this. Others who don't have essentially embraced the feminist version of CRT which isn't a good thing. And yes, there are rad fems who fall into that error, whatever they call themselves. If you don't start with material reality you aren't using a marxist class analysis, you are doing something else.
who is denying Raceism this thread is literally about a Asian women who called a mixed raced man a Racist terms point me to we’re anyone has said their are 0 racists in the When I have herd is people like me say not eveyone is Rasict not every white person is racist and to make all white people pay because some white people are Rasict is Rasict in it’s self also not everyone is convinced that a white paraplegic has more privilege than stormzy the millionaire

Their are Rasicts i regularly suffer at the hand of progressives with racial slurs the types that have BLM banners in their Twitter bio and #be kind I regularly watch TV programs were progressives sit around saying how black people are unable to achieve on their own merit and need to be helped as were so week I regularly see progressives suggest that black people should not be treated the same in law,education and employment and have diffrent treatment the soft Rasict behaviour of the left is very real

Their are Rasicts i regularly suffer at the hand of progressives with racial slurs the types that have BLM banners in their Twitter bio and #be kind I regularly watch TV programs were progressives sit around saying how black people are unable to achieve on their own merit and need to be helped as were so week I regularly see progressives suggest that black people should not be treated the same in law,education and employment and have diffrent treatment the soft Rasict behaviour of the left is very real

I remember reading an article about how distructive this type of thinking was in schools in deprived black communities in America - written by someone who taught in many of these schools. The teenagers believed that as they were black there was no point trying as they would get nowhere in life, whilst simultaneously believing there was no point bothering because positive discrimination meant they were guaranteed places/jobs etc. It led to a malaise within the schools and a lack of engagement that was hard for even dedicated students to fight against.

Tibtom I was watching Michael malice I think who is the author of the new right I think it was him who interviewed a some far right thinks and they were very much in agreement the felt it good people thinking about race in every interaction and that non blacks are not the same as whites in the way they behave

You now have progressives saying things like expecting people to be on time is radical white thinking 🤷‍♀️😳

Just no words 😶

You now have progressives saying things like expecting people to be on time is radical white thinking 🤷‍♀️😳

I find it difficult to know how we got here.

I think it's understood by most people with a brain, at least after the first time they encounter the concept, that different cultures can have different views of what counts as "on time." If you ask people to a party at 7pm, what time you actually expect them to show up will be different in the UK, or Brazil, or Ghana. And this can also apply differently between social classes or sometimes other groupings.

Yet people manage to go to all these places and adapt to the local customs.

Yet people manage to go to all these places and adapt to the local customs.

Yes, but the point people are trying to make by highlighting this stuff is to question who gets to decide what the local customs are in the US. They're not saying "African-Americans are incapable of being on time" they're staying "Why should African-Americans have to follow the time-keeping norms of people of white European heritage and not the other way around?"

When the Greek economy collapsed and needed an EU bailout, a lot of Germans said the Greeks should be more German and get up at six in the morning, go to work for eight hours a day, five days a week, then come home and have their dinner at six in the evening.

A better suggestion would have been for the Greeks to keep Spanish hours, go home in the afternoons, then come back to work in the evening, and have dinner at knocking on midnight when it was finally cool enough to sit outside.

As I believe in free speech I support this lady's right to be offensive - am an equal opportunities Je suis Charlie person. The university should just have told her off for being nasty (never mind telling her we Tories are kind and wonderful people and black, white and all sorts).... but not sacked her.

NotDavidTennant

Mutual agreement and you would only think a black person is unable to get somewhere on time because you don’t see them as British not really

Because anyone under 30 has been raised here barr new comers their whole life I am well aware of what our shared culture is as a black person I am able to get my self places on time

For example “rounds”at the pub even Muslims who don’t drink will be able to articulate what a round is and what’s the expectation for gods sake

We all understand the culture in the U.K. around queuing and take it very very seriously

But only a special type of Rasict would look at me who is English born and raised here a think I couldn’t get to a meeting on time because of the colour of my skin or even worse expect me to be late 😳

Being late is rude their is not a person who was raised here who doesn't know that

It’s the same type of lazy black thinking who will exuse bad behaviour by black and Asian people because the progressive Racist thinks it’s in “our culture”

They hold black and Asian people to a lower standard of behaviour and that makes the progressive racist just as it dose the neo nazi

@R0tational

The term coconut is a jibe, often used in a light-hearted manner amongst 2nd generation immigrants. I have often used this to refer to myself and has in no way ever been considered "racist". For example, it might mean someone who canot speak the language of their parents or wthnic heritage, or who do conform to the typical cultural values. It is rude as in I wouldnt say it in a professional capacity, but amongst friends its really not as horrific as some PP are making out.

I just thought I would add that as an NB. I dont know anything else about CRT or GC amongst academics. Lets all just be careful about witch hunts though.

Sorry but I have to disagree there, Coconut is a VERY offensive term. I would NEVER use it to a black friend, even in jest and I have never heard black friends using it amongst themselfs. In all discussions I have had it has been seen as very offensive and dont recomend anyone calling anyone else a coconut under any circumstances.

@Ozanj

Should predominately white run institutions get to police BAME thought / speech like this? That’s the point of debate. If this doesn’t get investigated then black people at universities will stop being able to reclaim the language white racists oppress them with.

She is white tho. And the person she called 'house negro' and 'coconut' is a black man?

@Mango1982 My husband is black and he agrees with you. How offensive is it that people shouldn't expect him to be on time because he's black?

I was actually gobsmacked when I read that graphic you posted up thread when it was posted on Twitter a while ago. How can anyone read that and not see the racism? For anyone that didn't see it, have a look at www.the-sun.com/news/1149007/african-american-museum-whiteness-chart-protestant-values/

The curious case of the 2016 film "Lady Macbeth," adapted from a Russian story and set in 1860s Northumbria, where for some reason all the servants are black. Presumably to denote their victim status whilst the family that own the estate are white and therefore oppressors.

Florence Pugh outstanding, but wtf all the same.

...meanwhile in the real world, the Yemenis of South Shields are among the oldest established of Britian's actual communities of colour.

@Mango1982

It’s the same type of lazy black thinking who will exuse bad behaviour by black and Asian people because the progressive Racist thinks it’s in “our culture”

They hold black and Asian people to a lower standard of behaviour and that makes the progressive racist just as it dose the neo nazi

It was this sort of thinking that allowed thousands of girls to be repeatedly raped in Rochdale.

Mutual agreement and you would only think a black person is unable to get somewhere on time because you don’t see them as British not really

I haven't said that black people are unable to get somewhere on time. That's exactly what I said the argument wasn't about.

I'm not even particularly a fan of critical race theory and suspect that it's leading race relations in the wrong direction, but I also think if you're an opponent of a particular viewpoint it's very easy to mistinterpret that viewpoint to make it look ridiculous and stupid, rather than giving it a fair hearing.

The display posted earlier in the thread suggesting that things like time-keeping where part of "white" culture came from the National Museum of African American History Culture. So either the National Museum of African American History Culture is inexplicabe racist against black people or the point being made is different from how people have interpreted it.

And again it's not even a view I necessarily agree with, but what I do agree with is that all views should get a fair hearing and not be dismissed out of hand.