"It's not terrorism": Plymouth *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

As soon as everyone saw the "It's not terrorism" reassurance last night wrt to the wretched events in Portsmouth - how many of us knew that the media would report a story about a young man with history of anger about lacking sexual experience with women?

[X] 23, a bodybuilder who appears obsessed with not being attractive to women and being without a girlfriend, has been named by people in the Devon naval city as the gunman with a five-year-old girl and several relatives feared to be among his victims.

I won't use X's name.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9890209/I-Terminator-Rambling-videos-fat-ugly-virgin-23-went-rampage-Plymouth.html

archive of article: archive.is/CkHNb

Sadly, I think it's because there is some reporting that one of the people killed is a child but unconfirmed what sex.

When I see the term 'not terrorism' I know that is femicide or mass femicide.

@AssassinatedBeauty

Sadly, I think it's because there is some reporting that one of the people killed is a child but unconfirmed what sex.

Oh ok, that’s awful.

@Mandalay246

Every woman in the UK and in fact, the world lives in fear of men and their violence. I walked past three teenage boys yesterday. They were walking their dogs and chatting, but I still had to take a moment to wonder if I would be safe to interact with them.

Please do not take it upon yourself to speak for "every woman in the world". I walk past teenage boys, and men, every day of my life and don't ever have to take a moment to wonder if I would be safe! Typical of the hyperbole on these threads.

I agree, I don't want people telling me I live in fear of men and their violence.

@GrandmaMazur

A slight aside but I noticed on the BBC story about this that the people he killed were referred to as females and males rather than women and men. Sounded really jarring to me and I wonder if that’s because the BBC so often uses women to refer to men.

I think a young child, 5 year old I think, has died. They are clearly not a man or a woman.

@GrandmaMazur

A slight aside but I noticed on the BBC story about this that the people he killed were referred to as females and males rather than women and men. Sounded really jarring to me and I wonder if that’s because the BBC so often uses women to refer to men.

Yes I noticed that too. It jumped out at me but I didn't know why it jarred.

@Sobeyondthehills

To me, when they use the term "It's not terrorism" They mean he is white

Since 9/11, this seems to be the only criteria for 'not terrorism'.

I think a young child, 5 year old I think, has died. They are clearly not a man or a woman.

Ah crossed post. That makes more sense :(

Devon and Cornwall Chief Constable doing a press conference now.

Maria Norris' thread on Incels, violence, white supremacy, and terrorism

Incel violence, like white supremacist violence, tends to be dismissed by the media, law enforcement, and the government as isolated incidents, therefore not political or part of wider social problems. Governments and law enforcement still have an outdated understanding of 'terrorism' and 'political violence' as requiring formal groups and membership.

twitter.com/MariaWNorris/status/1426121797448126464

This seems to support Joan Smith's article/book that there is a unmet need for a substantial revision to some categories.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/13/plymouth-shooting-gunman-said-terminator-final-youtube-video/?fbclid=IwAR1uzHEsACqtvL7JLn22Bi1RY0tELq5hUA0h8Wtwj4kHU5xsIHY2olAcLS8

@AssassinatedBeauty

Sadly, I think it's because there is some reporting that one of the people killed is a child but unconfirmed what sex.

PPs have provided the probable answer to this, that it involved a child. What jumped out at me from the early reports was they detailed the sex of the victims, but not the shooter. Whether they realised that or overlooked it, point is - they didn't even have to.

@IveGotASongThatllGetOnYNerves

Ah well, you see, it's not terrorism if the perpetrator is white and/or non Muslim and/or specifically targets women apparently. 🙄

Terrorism is the act of terrorising, creating terror, making people scared as hell and if shooting people isn't creating fear and distress and terrifying them then I don't know what is.

I understand that the definition of terrorism is that it’s violence with a political aim. That mean, terrible as this is, it’s not terrorism I don’t think.

Unless these incel individuals are committing these acts in order to try and enact political change (like a change in the law) then can’t be called terrorism, however much it “terrorises” people.

Awful, horrific, mysogenistic, yes

Good point made though about this definition and whether it’s fit for purpose now

The Daily Mail article I read struck me as really odd. This man was a supporter of Donald Trump, posted about American right wing politics and then killed those people in a way I, for one, would see as American-influenced. So I thought this incident had taken place in Plymouth, Massachusetts. But no.

Not for the first time have I noticed this American influence on the young. Actually, no it isn't an influence. It's a conflation of two very different societies where the bad aspects of one society seem to be dominating others.

@growinggreyer

Male violence against women IS terrorism. Every woman in the UK and in fact, the world lives in fear of men and their violence. I walked past three teenage boys yesterday. They were walking their dogs and chatting, but I still had to take a moment to wonder if I would be safe to interact with them. Luckily, all they felt brave enough to do was to mimic my voice when I was well past them. What if they had decided that my speaking to them was disrespectful and had no fear of consequences? What if they had decided that my NOT speaking to them... well, we all know the thought process.

No, male violence against women is not terrorism.

There are many forms of political violence, of which terrorism is one.

The person in question also killed men.

If I understand Norris' thread, incel is part of the portfolio within a network of hate and violence.

It's also important to highlight, as I've been trying to do here, that the incel community overlaps with the white supremacist community. It is very hard to disentangle both communities. The overlaps are numeorus.

Incel violence is white supremacist violence.

And both are deeply endemic of our society, and yet as long as they keep on being dismissed as 'isolated' 'domestic' issues, the threat will continue to grow until it swallows us all.

twitter.com/MariaWNorris/status/1426122596366667776

We seem to be so intent on shoe-horning terrorism into predefined categories that our social and governing structures are unwilling to address the threat in plain sight.

Please do not take it upon yourself to speak for "every woman in the world". I walk past teenage boys, and men, every day of my life and don't ever have to take a moment to wonder if I would be safe! Typical of the hyperbole on these threads.

This.

I'd actually assumed family annihilator who had killed a partner and child as she tried to escape him. Either way it's awful.

Same here. Was my first thought when they said it wasn't "terror-related". (Depends whose terror, really)

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'd actually assumed family annihilator who had killed a partner and child as she tried to escape him. Either way it's awful.

Same here. Was my first thought when they said it wasn't "terror-related". (Depends whose terror, really)

That was my 2nd thought and I havered about including it in the OP.

I thought it would be:
– narrative 1 as incel
– narrative 2 'lovely man, good father, helpful neighbour' family annihilator.

Eleanor Penny was fantastic in BBC news right now.

Asked whether any motive has been identified, the Chief Constable says investigators are "not considering terrorism or a relationship with a far-right group or any such other group".

I don't understand this "any such other group" statement. His YouTube channel (now removed) seemed to say different and that he might have been part of some kind of online group or have a "relationship" with online groups? Though I could be wrong.

Agree Nachthex, much of this is coming from the USA

@Nachthex

The Daily Mail article I read struck me as really odd. This man was a supporter of Donald Trump, posted about American right wing politics and then killed those people in a way I, for one, would see as American-influenced. So I thought this incident had taken place in Plymouth, Massachusetts. But no.

Not for the first time have I noticed this American influence on the young. Actually, no it isn't an influence. It's a conflation of two very different societies where the bad aspects of one society seem to be dominating others.

This (the Americanisation of our political discourse) is a huge, accelerating, and largely unrecognised, problem in the UK. It's happening at all levels, from the government-enabled (Brexit as a kind of de-Europeanisation and Americanisation of our state-run institutions) to youth (and beyond) culture which has latched onto US identity politics from both the far right and far left.

I find it incredibly worrying.

Seen as those there have been several mass shootings committed by people who identify with the incel subculture online, it would be enlightening to know how closely online activity is monitored, and whether the fact that deeply misogynistic and hateful posts are not censored and do radicalise young men means that more needs to be done- as would be with other forms of online radicalisation. Whether the end result is technically terrorism or not in way isn't even as important as changing attitudes to the online activity that has similarities imo.

Not sure if that made sense, I know what I mean though. Basically by not categorising it as anything it doesn't make it clear that it is part of a wider issue, and some online spaces encourage these thoughts; why just because it's not politically motivated is it often dismissed?