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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Fetishes and Autogynephilia

310 replies

Alonelonelylonersbadidea · 10/08/2021 21:28

I just thought it was worthwhile having a talk about this and we should try not to make 'sweeping negative generalisations', so in the spirit of positivity about fetishes generally, I don't actually have an issue with them if they don't impinge on anyone else. In fact I probably have fetishes of my own. Probably ones which don't fit with my feminist principles. Will maybe come back to that later.
What is the official feminist line on fetishes such as autogynephilia in terms of 'gender'? Is it possible to be 'each to their own' without being negative about cross dressers?

OP posts:
suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2021 15:03

You seem to be suggesting that we should wait for this man to declare what his motivation is before deciding how to react to him.

Of course that's what I'm saying! Why would you judge someone on what they choose to wear?!!

What relevance do his clothes have to you in the conversations you are likely to have with him? None at all.

What this feminist argument seems to be now is "Women and men should not be bound by gender stereotypes and should have the freedom to wear whatever they like. Oh. Except for men. They should only wear stereotypically male clothes and they will be considered perverts if they diverge from this." Way to go feminism.

LazyViper · 15/08/2021 15:08

The man’s unwanted presence in a female space is what we would judge him on. Not any aspect of his clothing.

irresistibleoverwhelm · 15/08/2021 15:15

@suggestionsplease1

You seem to be suggesting that we should wait for this man to declare what his motivation is before deciding how to react to him.

Of course that's what I'm saying! Why would you judge someone on what they choose to wear?!!

What relevance do his clothes have to you in the conversations you are likely to have with him? None at all.

What this feminist argument seems to be now is "Women and men should not be bound by gender stereotypes and should have the freedom to wear whatever they like. Oh. Except for men. They should only wear stereotypically male clothes and they will be considered perverts if they diverge from this." Way to go feminism.

You’re missing the point! We don’t care if men want to wear a range of clothes because they are comfortable, fun etc. We do care if it’s a way of co-opting sex or kink into someone’s social life in a way that’s designed to give the wearer a sexual thrill. I wouldn’t like a woman wearing her fetish gear out to Tesco either; same difference!

We’re discussing the difference between explicitly erotic cross-dressing/AGP, and wanting to be a woman. If the clothes don’t matter, then why dress up in them at all? It’s the purpose of the clothes and the specific type of eroticisation of women that feminists object to.

A woman who happens to be gay mentioning it in public isn’t overriding someone’s consent not to be drawn into other people’s sexual lives without agreement. Someone who practices erotic cross-dressing for a sexual thrill is. As I said, an analogue might be someone into BDSM or rubber going around openly wearing a collar or fetish gear or a gimp mask. That’s not acceptable either.

suggestionsplease1 · 15/08/2021 15:33

@irresistibleoverwhelm

Sexuality is not remotely the same as gender performance. Plus the performance of gender is all about the performance! The woman’s sexuality does not depend on whether you acknowledge it. Whereas - and we are speaking about AGP here - the aim of it is not at all to “pass” (a dodgy term in itself), but to be noticed as transgressive.

These are very false equivalences you’re making. A lot of them friend in this very dubious, and very recent, idea of “validation”, which conflates representation, acceptance and recognition. When you acknowledge the woman’s sexuality, you don’t “validate” it - it isn’t like a rubber stamp to say “you’re ok!” Her sexuality exists whether or not you approve of it, know, care or are totally oblivious.

Whereas the AGP fetish is all about the thrill of transgression and being seen to be performing something which otherwise doesn’t exist (without wearing the clothes, there is no AGP). But - crucially - your “validation” isn’t required either. All that is required is for you to see and notice - and maybe be shocked or titillated - but it definitely does not depend on “validation”. Remember we’re not talking about people who truly desire to be the other sex here: we’re talking about AGP, or crossdressing - the elements of which include a exaggerated portrayal of women and women’s clothing (typically wigs, lipstick, silky lingerie, stockings, heels - you don’t tend to find an AGP wanting to wear a grey fleece from the women’s section at Trespass).

sexuality is not remotely the same as gender performance Well I think many on this thread seem to think AGP is closer to a sexuality than a gender performance.

For many people sexuality does contain gender performance, so you can not make a sweeping first statement like that. If you are a straight woman think of a man you are attracted to wearing a variety of traditionally male or female attire. Does your sexual attraction to him vary depending on what he is wearing , trousers, a dress etc? - his gender performance? For some it won't, for many it will - his gender performance may matter to your sexual feelings for him. And for many their gender performance on a day by day basis is related to their own fluctuating sense of being a sexually attractive person to people they desire to attract.

My main equivalence is in the fact of your not knowing, when you meet someone, a hidden piece of information about them. If they have not declared they are straight, or gay you have no right to assume one or the other. If they have not declared that they are Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, you have no right to assume they are. If they have not declared they are AGP, you have no right to assume they are.

If you see illegal behaviour call the police, as I keep saying. Otherwise let people wear what they want.

I don't know that anyone has commented about lesbians and transmen that pack and get a thrill from doing this whilst out in public? Presumably this is exactly the same problem? Could it be more problematic as they usually have sexual orientations directed at other people, whereas with AGP, the 'auto' is clear that the sexuality is directed internally, at the self, and there is no sexual interest towards others present.

irresistibleoverwhelm · 15/08/2021 15:52

Lots of terns getting confused here.

Sexual orientation (homo/hetero/bisexual) is not the same as sexuality (the general term for sexual expression and the quality of being sexual; sexual activity).

Sexuality is not the same either as a a fetish or “kink” (as we’ve been discussing on this thread), though individual persons’ understanding of their sexualities may encompass these things.

None of the above are necessarily “identities” per se, though some people want to present them as such. Others don’t, or don’t care.

Gender per se, is not the same as gender identity, is not the same as gender performance (though they get lumped together at times). None of these are sexual orientations or sexualities either.

Wanting to mix all these terms up and confuse/obfuscate them onto a spectrum is one of the stated aims of “queer” theory; but other parts of queer theory want to naturalise these all as “identities” (logically, you can’t really have both; but this glaring contradiction doesn’t seem to occur to many self-styled “queer” people. How many bi/pan fights on tumblr would be avoided otherwise 😂)

irresistibleoverwhelm · 15/08/2021 15:52

*terms not terns! 😂

irresistibleoverwhelm · 15/08/2021 15:54

So - if the trans umbrella is made up of what used to be called cross dressers or AGP on one hand, but also those who transition because they feel a (non-sexual) deep identity as the other sex, then do some people under the trans umbrella see it as an identity; some as a sexuality; some as an orientation?

irresistibleoverwhelm · 15/08/2021 16:00

And when are we allowed to notice a difference?

There isn’t really any history in medical or psychological literature of an equivalent fetish for women - I suppose it would have to be autoandrophilia - I know a lot about the history of lesbian cross-dressing scenes and largely they did this to signal a sexual orientation in a way that made their lesbianism socially acceptable or playful; or to signal same-sex desire to other women. As you point out, and as we’ve discussed earlier upthread, that by definition is directed at others, not the self - and is part of sexual orientation/sexual expression, not a fetish. But these lines are blurred - sometimes deliberately so.

OldCrone · 15/08/2021 16:55

@suggestionsplease1

You seem to be suggesting that we should wait for this man to declare what his motivation is before deciding how to react to him.

Of course that's what I'm saying! Why would you judge someone on what they choose to wear?!!

What relevance do his clothes have to you in the conversations you are likely to have with him? None at all.

What this feminist argument seems to be now is "Women and men should not be bound by gender stereotypes and should have the freedom to wear whatever they like. Oh. Except for men. They should only wear stereotypically male clothes and they will be considered perverts if they diverge from this." Way to go feminism.

You have missed an important part of my post.

Suppose an unknown man stands in front of you wearing a dress, make up and fake breasts

Fake breasts on a man are not just clothes.

This turns him from a man wearing stereotypically female clothes into a man who is trying to impersonate a woman.

OldCrone · 15/08/2021 16:58

My main equivalence is in the fact of your not knowing, when you meet someone, a hidden piece of information about them. If they have not declared they are straight, or gay you have no right to assume one or the other. If they have not declared that they are Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, you have no right to assume they are. If they have not declared they are AGP, you have no right to assume they are.

But these things aren't equivalent. Someone's sexuality or religion is irrelevant most of the time.

If a man is trying to coerce me into participating in his fetish, I should have a right to know.

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 15/08/2021 17:38

@suggestionsplease1

You seem to be suggesting that we should wait for this man to declare what his motivation is before deciding how to react to him.

Of course that's what I'm saying! Why would you judge someone on what they choose to wear?!!

What relevance do his clothes have to you in the conversations you are likely to have with him? None at all.

What this feminist argument seems to be now is "Women and men should not be bound by gender stereotypes and should have the freedom to wear whatever they like. Oh. Except for men. They should only wear stereotypically male clothes and they will be considered perverts if they diverge from this." Way to go feminism.

You are (deliberately?) missing the point. A man can wear whatever he likes, that is not really anyone else's business.

But when that man thinks that wearing women's clothes permit him to enter women's spaces....NO.

Aparallaxia · 16/08/2021 20:42

Suggestionsplease
Here is part of the answer to your questions about AGP as a private fetish: like all fetishes, it involves attaching sexual meaning to objects, properties, processes, or body-parts that do not, in themselves, have a sexual function. There are, for example, e.g. Qing-era Chinese woodcut images that are uncoloured, except that the women’s feet have been picked out in red.

So far, you may think: well, we have to accommodate such people. They are apparently gender-non-conforming, mixing it up, breaking down the boxes, which is what feminists have wanted and have been doing themselves for some time. "Old-fashioned" transexuals were terribly gender-conforming—only it was the opposite gender they wanted to perform, and in every aspect of their lives. An AGP man isn’t like this. He’s a pervert with rose-tinted spectacles about women and a rose-coloured basque.

He looks on female underwear as a sexual prop for himself. He likes to carry it to work with him, to bars, to the game, to PTA meetings maybe; its being secret is part of the thrill, I guess. But if he’s married, maybe (probably) his wife knows about it. Maybe she’s been persuaded or coerced or bullied into “sharing” this secret life. The husband wants to wear this underwear in bed with his wife. Then he wants to play “the female rôle” (which means: being penetrated) while his wife plays “the male rôle”—she has to pretend to be a dominatrix so she can penetrate her husband. He starts wearing female clothing in his leisure hours. He ventures out sometimes in it. Gradually he begins to wear it all the time. He “comes out” as TG.

Now not every male female-underwear wearer goes down this well-trodden path. Some stay at the first stage for decades. What’s the harm in that, you ask?

First, because men who dress like that, also feel a certain way about women. They covet for themselves a very restricted vision of things that they think women have or do and they don’t, not yet: wearing soft fabrics, silk and lace; being able to adorn their persons and be complemented for it; being looked at and admired; being the object of desire. In their minds, they are a woman… but only because of the sexual gratification they receive from being treated “as a woman”, and from women treating them and accepting them as women. Whether we’re talking about secret underwear or surgery, the whole AGP thing is born of a man’s sexual desire to be seen as and be treated, not as a woman, but as he imagines women are and are treated.

Somehow he doesn’t associate being a woman with being paid less than men, being exploited or sex-trafficked, being intimidated, controlled, abused, beaten, raped, or murdered by a partner or ex-partner. He does not demand to be paid less in solidarity with "other women”. He does not start demanding to be given the lion’s share of housework and child-care. He doesn’t start worrying about heavy periods or the effects of the Pill, or about developing polycystic syndrome or breast cancer, or about how menopause will hit them. He doesn’t instinctively avoid dark alleys, dark corners, or anywhere alone with a strange man. (BTW, the murder rate for TG people is lower than it is for the rest of the population.) His is a narrow, sexualized imagining of what being a women involves. For him the “female rôle” is an exciting part in a sexual drama he wants to play again and again and again.

Second, if a man is wearing women's clothing, but otherwise does not perform the female rôle—that is, does not behave as women are conditioned socially to behave—then he will stand out like a sore thumb. There is no getting round this, as yet. There will unavoidably be a cognitive disconnect for those who engage with him, men and women alike. A very tall person in high heels and a short skirt and bright red lippie, who likes talking over people in meetings, is always competitive, can be a bully, is known to drive a powerful car fast and hard, tweets about violent assaults on women’s bodies, conspires with other men to drown women’s criticism of them and their language—all of this behaviour will remain “masculine”. (This is not to say that women cannot be domineering and loud, only that they are conventionally associated with the masculine gender, whereas heels and so on are not.)

So why does this person change their dress, their hair, etc., but not their personality? Why is it just this one aspect of themselves that they have opted to change? What has happened to the rest of "femininity"? Lots of gay men are feminine in various ways—they often like cooking, interior design, clothes, and talking about people and relationships, and often make excellent friends for girls and women. But they wear men's clothes, have (and like) men's bodies, and are definitely men. These men are… what?

This sort of lop-sided "femininity"—high heels and a domineering, look-at-me, violence-loving personality—will be familiar, at any rate to Mumsnetters, from the very masculine abuse and threats of violence, including rape, hurled at “TERFs” and especially at lesbians, who are, of course, very sensitive to these threats, since PWPs have been threatening to "set them straight" with a good dose of cock since time immemorial.

Feminism taught us that “the personal is political”. In this case, that men’s personal choices come from a perverse, incomplete, distorted understanding of women and what it is like to be a woman. He has cut out all of the unwelcome political consequences of that condition and left only a conventional sexual rôle. And the sexual fantasy they construct for themselves is always also for the women around them. They are part of the drama. They can provide validation, if the person transitions to wearing female dress. At the very least, they are also wearing female underwear. How exciting is that! How wonderful and erotic! How could women ever complain about bullying in the workplace or equal pay and conditions or paid maternity leave when they get to go that mAg!cål WºnDerfuŁ place that is Victoria’s Secret and try on padded bras and silk thongs with other women in cubicles around them and no one bats an eyelid! It is so unfair!!

And this is not to talk about which bathroom he will use and how womem will feel about having to accommodate his fantasy. They may not have transitioned physically at all. That person in a short skirt and heels may have a penis and testicles under there. And as we women don't know either way, then our penis-radar will be pinging away like mad. Unless we know better, that person will be perceived by women as a potential threat. We will avoid being alone with this person, apart from others, either inside or outside, unless we know him well and/or someone they know well can vouch for him. We will not readily give him our phone number or address. We will not engage in intimate conversation with him. And so on.

Yet this man's feminine dress is a message to others that he wants to join female conversation and to enter female spaces. So which loo do they use? Do women always have to go to the restroom in couples? This person's behaviour has, in effect, forced these women to accommodate his desire to wear women's clothing while not changing in any other way.

OurMamInHavianas · 17/08/2021 01:56

@LazyViper

Laughable to suggest that a woman announcing her sexuality is in any way equivalent to AGP validation.

It would be a closer match to compare AGP with another kink, not homosexuality. For example, if an adult baby enthusiast had society’s approval to force his way into attending a nursery, where the staff had to change his nappy and burp him over their shoulders or else be shamed and possibly fired for being adultbabyphobics. That’s ludicrous, but a nearer estimation of the AGP social issue than a lesbian coming out.

This
CuntAmongstThePigeons · 17/08/2021 03:24

Great Post aparallexia, sorry I hope I've spelt that right. So clearly sets out agp and how damaging it is to women.

Justa47 · 17/08/2021 04:46

@Aparallaxia

Wow you are very angry.
I read your piece a lot and I find it very anti trans

Of course there are allows men and women that abuse situations.

That’s not the majority of trans people.

Just fakes.

Should we harm people by pandering to the fakes.

You come across as have being hurt. I am sure you won’t admit it. But please seek help.

Aparallaxia · 17/08/2021 06:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

LastSummerHere · 17/08/2021 07:06

Fantastic post Aparallexia...you have described these men perfectly. They wear women like a costume and it is fucking offensive. They can never hide the man beneath.

TinselAngel · 17/08/2021 08:46

[quote Justa47]@Aparallaxia

Wow you are very angry.
I read your piece a lot and I find it very anti trans

Of course there are allows men and women that abuse situations.

That’s not the majority of trans people.

Just fakes.

Should we harm people by pandering to the fakes.

You come across as have being hurt. I am sure you won’t admit it. But please seek help.[/quote]
13th rule of misogyny:
*
Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves.*

guinnessguzzler · 17/08/2021 08:58

Yes, it's just a step away from 'Calm down, dear', isn't it? Hmm

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 17/08/2021 09:07

Justa47

Women have a right to be angry. A subset of men is imitating women with nefarious intent, rewriting the law to shore up their identity and invading women's spaces.

How on earth are we meant to tell the difference between a well meaning transwoman or a man who wants to do us harm? We have safeguarding principles based on groups of people - men for example - who statistically cause more harm to women than vice versa. This is one of the reasons why we have sex-segregated spaces.

How dare you berate a woman for her entirely justified anger. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman, and no idea what it's like to have you very being coopted to fulfil a fantasy.

Step off, the women are talking and you are not welcome in this conversation.

terryleather · 17/08/2021 09:37

"Fakes"

So not everyone's identity claims can be taken at face value...?

Which is rather the point...

InvisibleDragon · 17/08/2021 10:29

A couple of thoughts ...

Firstly, I think there is an additional fetish behaviour that we are not talking about much here, which is men who are turned on by coercion - either the idea of themselves being "forced" to do something sexually, or turned on by coercing someone else into doing something, or deliberately crossing stated boundaries. There have been several posts mentioning that as part of AGP, but I think it is separate. I've known men with no interest in cross dressing who engaged in abusive sexual practices and continually manipulated and pushed boundaries because that act of transgression gave them a sexual thrill. Similarly, making someone complicit in something they then have to keep secret from others. Those kinds of behaviour are clearly abusive and controlling and they are present in so many of the TransWidows' stories. I think that sometimes when this behaviour shows up in the context of someone transitioning it is harder to see and name this coercive behaviour for what it is - partly because of the social stories we have about transition being a courageous exposure of a vulnerable true self, and partly because those narratives are co-opted by the abuser to paint their victim's discomfort about boundary violations as close-minded bigotry.

Secondly, I agree with Aparallaxia about the male perspective that is inherent in the types of clothing that some cross-dressing men desire
They covet for themselves a very restricted vision of things that they think women have or do and they don’t, not yet: wearing soft fabrics, silk and lace; being able to adorn their persons and be complemented for it; being looked at and admired; being the object of desire.

Personally, I find "sexy" underwear etc extremely dehumanising. It is uncomfortable and impractical - often not soft but scratchy, tight and restrictive. And yet it looks "sexy" to a man because it pushes your cleavage up and exposes your skin to be pawed at and leered over. A piece of meat. An object of desire. Perhaps it's because I've experienced sexual trauma that I feel like this, but dressing in a sexy way to be noticed by men is actually something I would prefer to avoid. I find it degrading and humiliating. And yet it is exactly this objectification that some men seem to desire most.

I think there are several different things going on here:

  • a male worldview that sees women as objects of male desire
  • fetishizing dominant/submissive behaviour pairings
  • fetishizing women's objectification
  • fetishizing boundary violations

These things are expressed in different ways - eg sissy porn, cross dressing, transition for AGP-related reasons, coercive control, sexual abuse, BDSM - and in different combinations. But they are connected, like Aparallaxia says, by an underlying worldview (hey, we could call it patriarchy) in which women are seen as existing to support men's desires and in which men are entitled to use women's bodies for their personal gratification.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/08/2021 13:34

Firstly, I think there is an additional fetish behaviour that we are not talking about much here, which is men who are turned on by coercion - either the idea of themselves being "forced" to do something sexually, or turned on by coercing someone else into doing something, or deliberately crossing stated boundaries. There have been several posts mentioning that as part of AGP, but I think it is separate.

YY.

Datun · 17/08/2021 13:50

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Firstly, I think there is an additional fetish behaviour that we are not talking about much here, which is men who are turned on by coercion - either the idea of themselves being "forced" to do something sexually, or turned on by coercing someone else into doing something, or deliberately crossing stated boundaries. There have been several posts mentioning that as part of AGP, but I think it is separate.

YY.

Indeed.

I'm pretty certain Grayson Perry is entirely upfront about this. He gets turned on by dressing as a little girl, but makes absolutely no attempt to actually look like one. It's all ridiculous apple cheeked make up and Heidi wigs. And he said that as people became less shocked at the transgression, the turn on wore off.

He's become so well-known, that the shock value has disappeared, and with it, the arousal.

LastSummerHere · 17/08/2021 15:46

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Justa47

Women have a right to be angry. A subset of men is imitating women with nefarious intent, rewriting the law to shore up their identity and invading women's spaces.

How on earth are we meant to tell the difference between a well meaning transwoman or a man who wants to do us harm? We have safeguarding principles based on groups of people - men for example - who statistically cause more harm to women than vice versa. This is one of the reasons why we have sex-segregated spaces.

How dare you berate a woman for her entirely justified anger. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman, and no idea what it's like to have you very being coopted to fulfil a fantasy.

Step off, the women are talking and you are not welcome in this conversation.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏