Fetishes and Autogynephilia

[Alonelonelylonersbadidea]

I just thought it was worthwhile having a talk about this and we should try not to make 'sweeping negative generalisations', so in the spirit of positivity about fetishes generally, I don't actually have an issue with them if they don't impinge on anyone else. In fact I probably have fetishes of my own. Probably ones which don't fit with my feminist principles. Will maybe come back to that later.
What is the official feminist line on fetishes such as autogynephilia in terms of 'gender'? Is it possible to be 'each to their own' without being negative about cross dressers?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Well of course, women have been granted a lot more freedom than men in this country at least to dress in gender atypical ways without social rejection and disapproval

Women weren’t granted it, they fought for it. And they didn’t do it by saying they were men

Many of the men wanting to dress in gender atypical clothing now aren't saying that they are women, so how does your argument work?

On this thread it seems to be a commonly held opinion that it is not necessary to ascertain the motivation of the individual wearing gender atypical clothing - speculation of the perceiver about their motivation is enough. Which is, of course, the exact same sentiment that women wear dealing with as they challenged social norms by wearing more masculine clothing.

@Datun

Well of course, women have been granted a lot more freedom than men in this country at least to dress in gender atypical ways without social rejection and disapproval. I have no doubt that the pathway to this was also paved with speculation about improper motivations and and deviant sexualities, just as we are seeing in this thread now.

Men still have a long way to go to escape the policing and censure of their choices to dress in gender atypical ways it seems.

Oh for heaven's sake. That's because women dressing in men's clothes is seen as punching up, whereas men dressing in women's clothes is as seen as punching down. Hence girlie, sissy, etc.

Some men who crossed dress get involved in things like forced feminisation and sissification. What would the equivalent be for women? Forced leadership? Strengthification?

And it's not really relevant to women spaces. It doesn't matter what you wear, you can't change sex.

Ok, and this is, I think a real problem - people buying into a value system that has 'masculinity' and markers thereof, at the top, and 'femininity' and markers thereof at the bottom.

Copying/pasting below from what I posted in another thread as it's what I would be re-writing here in response to this anyway...

If women wear stereotypically male clothes, even ultra-masculine, this is not typically presently considered problematic. I don't think there are general thoughts that women who do this are attempting to ridicule, mock or parody men.

However, a lot of people seem to think that men who dress in more stereotypically women's clothes are mocking women, that this is insulting, making a parody out of women. Either that, or it is fetishistic.

It strikes me that to get to that distinction you have to be in the mindset that what is male is desirable and aspirational, and have devalued perceptions of femaleness - that nobody would naturally want to imitate this, so of course there must be an element of ridicule in any male that does.

I think that's a big problem and is doubling down on the masculine/feminine value distinction, but it seems clear that many GC feminists are not happy about men presenting in a more stereotypically feminine way.

People really need to stop buying into an artificial value system that elevates 'masculinity' and markers of it.

Which is, of course, the exact same sentiment that women wear dealing with as they challenged social norms by wearing more masculine clothing.

I honestly don’t understand why you think this, because it’s patently not true. When wearing trousers became the fashion, it was very quickly adopted by young and older women - particularly during the war - but well before then, wearing “slacks” was normalised very quickly and in fact became an aspirational fashion, because wealthy middle class young and older women were often the first to wear them and they were often very approved of by young men as indicating a woman being modern, racy or “fast” - it was considered titillating! Chanel was a great proponent of them. Exactly the same thing happened when women started smoking in large numbers.

There was not much challenging of social norms going on; in fact, as other posters have pointed out, women doing masculine things or wearing men’s clothes has always been approved of as being a bit racy and sexy (you can see bums! Great for the male gaze!) and as a result quite unthreatening. Women were flashing their bloomers and sea suits in the 19th as a titillating display to men. This is all quite obvious and well known and internalised by women, though, so I’m a bit baffled to spell it out.

In other threads you’ve said you’re a middle-aged lesbian woman, suggestionsplease: but I’m really puzzled at these kinds of statements, because it honestly sounds like you’ve recently landed from Mars and have been observing these things called “women” from a distance! The idea that women ever seriously challenged gender norms by wearing trousers is one of them… if they had truly done they wouldn’t have been allowed!

It strikes me that to get to that distinction you have to be in the mindset that what is male is desirable and aspirational, and have devalued perceptions of femaleness - that nobody would naturally want to imitate this, so of course there must be an element of ridicule in any male that does.

This is literally a definition of patriarchy and sexism. This is what GC feminists are explicitly against. This is the whole point. Women see this and are subjected to this literally from birth. Every woman knows this from her personal experience ! That is what feminism is explicitly designed to fight against!

How can you be confusing feminist analysis of this with the system itself?

I keep thinking how surreal life is. We've all had to lock down because of a virus like no other and now we are expected to look at a willy and say it's female if the person attached says it is for potential kinks.
Have I been abducted by aliens to a parallel universe?

Grown men look like men. I just don't see how I am supposed to change my brain to see a woman if a man says he is a she...constantly squint?

How many of those supporting this really believe it's true that gender is fluid and how may instead are scared, feel pity, or want to pretend to be in the 'in' group and don't understand the risk of losing sex-based rights and spaces ?

it seems clear that many GC feminists are not happy about men presenting in a more stereotypically feminine way.

GC feminists have no problem with men or women dressing how they like.

We don't have to go back far in time to remember glam rock, Bowie, new romantics etc to find men dressing in what would be considered a feminine style. It ebbs and flows with fashion.

Drag is different because it's often extremely exaggerated to the point of being clownish and absurd.

Drag is different, because it’s based in a whole comedic tradition of parodying and making fun of women dating back to music hall and before then. It’s not just drag queens, it’s the old women in Monty Python and the Two Ronnies taking off older ladies and jokes about fish.

This will probably be deleted, but my goodness there is a world of difference between Bowie putting on some lip gloss and a silver jump suit and a man tottering around in 6 inch heels, stilettos and a pencil skirt. And we all know that for heaven’s sake

However, a lot of people seem to think that men who dress in more stereotypically women's clothes are mocking women, that this is insulting, making a parody out of women. Either that, or it is fetishistic.

That's correct. So when Feminists say anyone should be able to wear anything, they want to remove the hierarchical nature of it.

There are men, Jared Smith, Harry Styles, etc, who will wear clothing normally associated with women, but they are not trying to imitate a woman. There's nothing mocking or punching down about it. It's gender busting.

Men who wear women's clothing in order to look like a woman are not doing that.

This really isn't complicated.

And I'm not sure you realise this, but most women can spot a man who is getting off on wearing women's clothing, from one who's just wearing it, at a hundred paces.

Indeed Datun

The presence of a stuffed bra is usually a good indicator

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Indeed Datun

The presence of a stuffed bra is usually a good indicator

Exactly 😄

@Enough4me

I keep thinking how surreal life is. We've all had to lock down because of a virus like no other and now we are expected to look at a willy and say it's female if the person attached says it is for potential kinks. Have I been abducted by aliens to a parallel universe?

Grown men look like men. I just don't see how I am supposed to change my brain to see a woman if a man says he is a she...constantly squint?

How many of those supporting this really believe it's true that gender is fluid and how may instead are scared, feel pity, or want to pretend to be in the 'in' group and don't understand the risk of losing sex-based rights and spaces ?

I feel like this every effing day.

Some men who crossed dress get involved in things like forced feminisation and sissification. What would the equivalent be for women? Forced leadership? Strengthification?

@Datun You definitely win MN today!

My earlier post got deleted, I have no idea why. Anyway, here's an excellent Twitter thread from a trans man who has transitioned and has developed an excellent attitude to women:

twitter.com/Noneofy73003973/status/1427978099153584130

What would the equivalent be for women? Forced leadership? Strengthification?

I quite fancy dressing in really practical clothes and having somebody tell me how great I am

I regularly go swimming and there are only a few cubicles, no problem as we biological women change in the shared area. I honestly don't know what I would do if a man dressed as a woman entered.

Can I currently still say to him that this is the women's changing area or am I supposed to run away leave if I feel uncomfortable?

*I only say biological woman to make the point that we don't have willys.

Update, went to gym today and the signs now say 'female' changing area. That is better than 'women' as less likely to have a male try to get in.

I’ve copied part of a post from another thread, which is relevant:

Well there is an aspect of period fetish in autogebphylic males. There are boards where trans women discuss how to mimic a period and how to make fake blood etc. I won’t share this as it’s disturbing to read.

So yes, it is important to make sure safe facilities are provided for menstruating women and girls without having to be the subject of being fetishized by autogenphylic males.

I've known 2 women who have been in AGP relationships.

One, tried very hard to accept her husband when he 'came out' to her and even took him shopping for clothing and wigs etc.

As time went on and she became more accepting (although, not necessarily more comfortable), he became emboldened to explore more extreme fetishes, including (but not limited to) wearing adult nappies, which he'd then soil and expect her to change.

He then started joining groups of like-minded men and taking them home - expecting his poor wife to have threesomes. Any time she objected, he threatened suicide and his behaviour became unstable and frightening.

They had a young son and this is what prompted her to leave in the end as her husband's proclivities were spilling out into their family life more and more.

Their entire life was now about him and his kinks. He didn't care about the effect it had on her - she was just a prop for his fantasies and he used her good nature against her.

This was about 30 years ago now and thank goodness she finally got away. I'm absolutely sure that her ex husband will now be one of those middle-aged men claiming trans status and expecting special privileges for being one of the 'vulnerable minority' who are the most oppressed people ever.

She, on the other hand, has never been able to trust another man or form a normal, loving relationship because of him. Whenever I hear these men talk about 'cis' privilege, it makes me want to spit.

A useful thread...I say useful, I actually mean quite frightening and kind of gross...but important nonetheless.

twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1466071208970137616?s=21

[quote OhHolyJesus]A useful thread...I say useful, I actually mean quite frightening and kind of gross...but important nonetheless.

twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1466071208970137616?s=21[/quote]
That thread is pretty disturbing to read. This should be much more widely shown and discussed so people understand what's really the motivation behind all this. Men using us to facilitate their twisted fantasies. And so many young women pandering to this.

It's so difficult because if you bring up AGP, people don't know what the hell you're talking about, and then you have to explain it, and they get embarrassed and think you are just a pervert.

They are using our biological experiences as wank-fodder, and if we complain we are the bad guys and they are the victims! It's basically psychological abuse hiding in plain sight!!

It's so difficult because if you bring up AGP, people don't know what the hell you're talking about, and then you have to explain it, and they get embarrassed and think you are just a pervert.

Or some kind of weird conspiracist, with a Mary Whitehouse bent.

As other people have noted, where do the general public think all the transvestites have gone?

This is a hugely important topic and I am glad to see it being discussed.