Fetishes and Autogynephilia

[Alonelonelylonersbadidea]

I just thought it was worthwhile having a talk about this and we should try not to make 'sweeping negative generalisations', so in the spirit of positivity about fetishes generally, I don't actually have an issue with them if they don't impinge on anyone else. In fact I probably have fetishes of my own. Probably ones which don't fit with my feminist principles. Will maybe come back to that later.
What is the official feminist line on fetishes such as autogynephilia in terms of 'gender'? Is it possible to be 'each to their own' without being negative about cross dressers?

The point I was originally trying to make was AGP is not recognised here in the UK

Sorry still confused, not recognised as what?

@OhHolyJesus

The point I was originally trying to make was AGP is not recognised here in the UK

Sorry still confused, not recognised as what?

A psychiatric disorder.

A psychiatric disorder.

I thought it was a paraphilia. Are they generally considered to be psychiatric disorders?

Whatever clinical label - it is what it is. It is my belief that those natal woman who insist cross dressers/AGP/those suffering from dysphoria as straight males are 'women' have NOT had first hand experience of a fetishist

I'm not sure whether it matters whether it's labelled a psychiatric disorder, a paraphilia, a fetish or given any other label. Not being a psychiatric disorder doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

@OldCrone Apols
As most if these men only become emboldened ( particularly when they are in a committed, long term relationship) I think it's fair to posit that women in their 20s have no clue - which is a double edged sword. Pleased you haven't experienced it, outraged you refuse to listen to women who have.
Or indeed, that the notion has been sooo diluted by theory that this simply doesn't exist - see my previous posts

@OldCrone

I'm not sure whether it matters whether it's labelled a psychiatric disorder, a paraphilia, a fetish or given any other label. Not being a psychiatric disorder doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Indeed. Men aren't women just because they fetishise them. Ffs.

[quote Illaria]@OldCrone Apols
As most if these men only become emboldened ( particularly when they are in a committed, long term relationship) I think it's fair to posit that women in their 20s have no clue - which is a double edged sword. Pleased you haven't experienced it, outraged you refuse to listen to women who have.
Or indeed, that the notion has been sooo diluted by theory that this simply doesn't exist - see my previous posts [/quote]
I'm very confused by this post. You seem to have misunderstood what I've said.

@OldCrone please elaborate

Anybody who thinks that AGP doesn't exist, I would invite to view the stories of the women who have been victims of it:

www.transwidowsvoices.org/our-voices

@Illaria you've tagged me but your reply seems to be aimed at someone else.

I said: "I'm not sure whether it matters whether it's labelled a psychiatric disorder, a paraphilia, a fetish or given any other label. Not being a psychiatric disorder doesn't mean it doesn't exist." All I was doing there was agreeing with your post immediately before mine.

My post was aimed at the poster who seemed to be saying that if AGP wasn't "recognised as a psychiatric disorder" that therefore it didn't exist (not sure if that's what they meant as their posts didn't make a lot of sense).

I was just saying that it doesn't matter what you call it, it's still real.

@OnlyTheLangOfTheTitberg

I think that more than one of the women on the transwidows threads have described their exes displaying resentment, jealousy and/or petulance over the fact their partners had, effortlessly, the thing they desired to have for themselves above all else: womanhood, a female body. So it’s not hard to see how in a man with AGP and a large dose of common or garden misogyny, this could manifest itself into DV, in a “if I can’t have it then neither should you” rage.

My ex hated me for not being feminine. He thought it was a terrible waste to have a female body and to dress in jeans and t-shirts. He was also very envious of my size; he wanted to be petite and girly and he was (still is, probably) 6'5".

He also had a strong fetish for a specific item of clothing.

Anybody who thinks that AGP doesn't exist, I would invite to view the stories of the women who have been victims of it:

https://www.transwidowsvoices.org/our-voicess^

Absolutely this. It's a wake up call.

I said: "I'm not sure whether it matters whether it's labelled a psychiatric disorder, a paraphilia, a fetish or given any other label. Not being a psychiatric disorder doesn't mean it doesn't exist." All I was doing there was agreeing with your post immediately before mine.

My post was aimed at the poster who seemed to be saying that if AGP wasn't "recognised as a psychiatric disorder" that therefore it didn't exist (not sure if that's what they meant as their posts didn't make a lot of sense).

I was just saying that it doesn't matter what you call it, it's still real.
@OldCrone
My apologies for sausage finger behaviour

@TinselAngel why is it certain 'feminists' don't believe us?

[quote Illaria]@TinselAngel why is it certain 'feminists' don't believe us? [/quote]
Because it's unsavoury and inconvenient.

I've name changed for this...

I'm very happily married to someone who sometimes likes cross dressing as a fetish. I'm also passionately gender critical.

He doesn't believe it makes him a woman any more than a Spiderman costume makes him Spiderman. He wouldn't do it in public or get anyone else involved in any way. It's a private fetish. He thinks stonewalls inclusion list for trans is as ridiculous as I do, and he's not TWAW.

There are likely a large number of men (who fully agree that they are men) which are similar, and that don't bother anyone.

I think we should differentiate between those that like to take their fetish into life (not appropriate), and those that parade it round as part of their identity, and that who just quietly and harmlessly enjoy aspects of this in private. If someone wants to take their fetish and become more public with it, then frankly, that's what sex clubs are for, not marks and Spencer.

Obviously there are also that who use sexual cross dressing as a way in to identifying as trans, but that's by no means universal.

I don't think all sexual cross-dressing is AGP, is it? That seems to be a very specific mental construct.

@SmokedDuck

I don't think all sexual cross-dressing is AGP, is it? That seems to be a very specific mental construct.

Cross dressing is AGP. it's a fetish.

Cross dressers are "trans" according to Stonewall.

Hence problems.

Sorry, obviously some cross dressing is done for performance sake, eg drag queens etc but even drag queens are considered "trans" therefore "trans women" therefore "women" BC TWAW including drag acts and cross dressers.

It really is a headfuck.

who just quietly and harmlessly enjoy aspects of this in private

No. I think they are generally coercing their wives into participating in it and so it is not harmless.

Leaving aside the obvious problems with the classification being disputed by many credible sources..

Autogynophilia refers to a a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female - so instead of his sexuality and desires being directed at others, it is directed inwardly (it has also been described as an erotic target location error.)

So the majority of other men and plenty of women too of course, are aroused by women - any woman they meet out and about might be the object of their arousal, and as such more likely to be on the receiving end of inappropriate behaviour from them, - why are they all not more concerning to feminists then this tiny minority of males that, by definition, are not really interested or aroused by other woman at all, just by the thought of themselves as one?

If people should be free to present themselves in any way they like (a quite commonly stated goal of feminism) what is wrong with that?

And if there is speculation about improper behaviours, well we already have plenty of legislation in place to address that and we all know that heterosexual men with no paraphilias are perfectly capable of improper behaviours in public.

@GNCQ

Sorry, obviously some cross dressing is done for performance sake, eg drag queens etc but even drag queens are considered "trans" therefore "trans women" therefore "women" BC TWAW including drag acts and cross dressers.

It really is a headfuck.

I don't mean what SW thinks though.

I mean, AGP people are cross-dressing because they find they need to conceptualize themselves as women to enjoy sex. But a man could also cross dress during sex because it has a transgressive element, or for role-playing that isn't fetishistic in the same way.

AGP is a very specific mental construct.

suggestionsplease

AGP does involve other people. Not only to affirm the AGP individual, but there is a kind of dual role involved, A bit like an exhibitionist is aroused by thinking of himself through the eyes of another person, but that third person may well be watching him have sex with a partner.