Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Fetishes and Autogynephilia

310 replies

Alonelonelylonersbadidea · 10/08/2021 21:28

I just thought it was worthwhile having a talk about this and we should try not to make 'sweeping negative generalisations', so in the spirit of positivity about fetishes generally, I don't actually have an issue with them if they don't impinge on anyone else. In fact I probably have fetishes of my own. Probably ones which don't fit with my feminist principles. Will maybe come back to that later.
What is the official feminist line on fetishes such as autogynephilia in terms of 'gender'? Is it possible to be 'each to their own' without being negative about cross dressers?

OP posts:
Datun · 11/08/2021 11:20

@PermanentTemporary

Fetishes are the flaw in pure gender critical thinking (mine included) which says that men wearing women's clothes shouldn't matter at all and that clothes shouldn't be coded m/f. It doesn't take account of what is going on around someone's choice to present unconventionally from a gender point of view. The strength of the different strands of wanting to appear outside convention, and performing an escape from your own life, and getting something sexual from your own appearance, and whether you want someone else to be involved/notice that, and the circumstances which you want that to occur in, seem to really vary. Grayson Perry for example seems to have a strong strand of being outside convention and of performing. But he's also referred to his 'sexy, fetishy thing' of cross dressing.

I believe that if there were no clothes coded masculine or feminine at all, it wouldn't make much difference to women's status in society. I also don't think it would happen. I think about Wild Swans, where the Communist Party mandated identical clothes for men and women, and women stayed up at night crafting the tiniest differences in their clothes in order to signal their femininity. In all this, the staus of women was genuinely better than in previous revolutionary China, but that wasn't saying bloody much, nor were women truly equal.

I don't think it would matter what marker is used to fetishise women. It just happens to be clothes as the easiest one. But women's menstruation is sexually fetishised, pregnancy, breastfeeding, even as we have seen lately, stillbirth. Anything that marks someone as a woman, will be used to fetishise their subordination.
happydappy2 · 11/08/2021 11:24

My thoughts are...I accept some men like to cross dress, that's fine BUT I draw the line at them expecting to access public spaces/services for women & girls. If some men are allowed in then that's the end of single sex provision which is sadly very much needed.

It was very clever to use the word trans rather than transexual, as makes it sound far more friendly & unproblematic, leading smoothly into the invention of the trans child.

Also, if someone has gender dysphoria, I'm not convinced that suggesting to them to 'live as the opposite sex' is necessarily the best solution. For many, this is simply unachievable & will lead to more problems/confusion/hurt/anxiety etc.

If a patient presented with anorexia, we would treat their mind, not agree with them that they are overweight....

Gottalife · 11/08/2021 11:31

@pombear

I was just posting on another thread but it disappeared, as apparently we're not allowed to talk about this thing.

Despite a respected NHS advisor talking about the same thing in a room full of healthcare professionals:

Tara Hewitt, a prominent NHS advisor explaining that people with a cross-dressing fetish come under the trans umbrella:

Definition of trans starts at 4.20
Specific mention of fetish at 5.28

Never get tired of pointing out that Tara pointedly describes it as, in Tara's own words:

people who fetishistically cross dress so they wear clothing to get a sexual desire out of the clothing of the opposite gender...so generally men wearing women's underwear

I don't know many women who wear boxer shorts and find that sexually arousing

But she doesn't talk about AGP. And it is not in the DSM-5 or ICD-10. The label needs to be binned.
terryleather · 11/08/2021 11:36

So many folk proclaiming AGP isn't a "thing" Gottalife, so many folk telling us to look the other way.

Too late. We can see.

R0wantrees · 11/08/2021 11:44

But she doesn't talk about AGP. And it is not in the DSM-5 or ICD-10. The label needs to be binned.

Hewitt describes, "people who fetishistically cross dress" and clarifies this is generally men wearing women's underwear.

Wiki
"Transvestic fetishism is a psychiatric diagnosis applied to those who are thought to have an excessive sexual or erotic interest in cross-dressing; this interest is often expressed in autoerotic behavior. It differs from cross-dressing for entertainment or other purposes that do not involve sexual arousal. Under the name transvestic disorder, it is categorized as a paraphilia in the DSM-5... The DSM-5 states that adolescent and adult males with late-onset gender dysphoria "frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement." "Habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia" is given as a risk factor for gender dysphoria to develop." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism

OvaHere · 11/08/2021 11:52

@SmokedDuck

Oops - posted too soon. When we consider that fetish, by definition, tends to mean that a person often will not be able to have a very satisfying "normal" sex life, I think it becomes questionable that it isn't harmful, at least to the person involved.

Real fetishes largely seem to occur outside of the control of the individual, but I can't help but think that by normalising them, and also by exposing young people to more sexual material at young ages, or weird/unusual sexual images, we make that more likely to develop.

I've mentioned this before but a few years ago I read an interview with a man who used to work in Customs (pre internet age) and whose job it was to monitor, and potentially seize, pornography coming through the border into the country.

I wish I'd saved it because I've never been able to find it again since. He made a point of saying that it's supply that creates the demand and he took very seriously the question of acceptability in wider society.

His argument was that the vast majority of people would never entertain the thought of certain extreme sex acts or fetishes if they were never introduced to them in the first place.

Then the internet happened.

I don't know if this guy was right but it's certainly food for thought and of course now the stable door is open and the horse well and truly bolted.

Gottalife · 11/08/2021 12:00

[quote R0wantrees]But she doesn't talk about AGP. And it is not in the DSM-5 or ICD-10. The label needs to be binned.

Hewitt describes, "people who fetishistically cross dress" and clarifies this is generally men wearing women's underwear.

Wiki
"Transvestic fetishism is a psychiatric diagnosis applied to those who are thought to have an excessive sexual or erotic interest in cross-dressing; this interest is often expressed in autoerotic behavior. It differs from cross-dressing for entertainment or other purposes that do not involve sexual arousal. Under the name transvestic disorder, it is categorized as a paraphilia in the DSM-5... The DSM-5 states that adolescent and adult males with late-onset gender dysphoria "frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement." "Habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia" is given as a risk factor for gender dysphoria to develop." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism[/quote]
Transvestic fetishism is the correct term.

Gottalife · 11/08/2021 12:02

@terryleather

So many folk proclaiming AGP isn't a "thing" Gottalife, so many folk telling us to look the other way.

Too late. We can see.

?
picklemewalnuts · 11/08/2021 13:31

So you are arguing about the name, not the existence of the behaviour?

picklemewalnuts · 11/08/2021 13:33

Because honestly, the people 'being kind' and arguing for inclusion are not thinking of men with transvestic fetishism. If they understood they had been recruited to the cause of transvestic fetishism, they'd back pedal pretty fast, I reckon.

R0wantrees · 11/08/2021 13:55

Transvestic fetishism is the correct term.

'Tranvestic fetishism' is recognised as potentially escalating into a category of paraphillic disorder due to the impact on self and/or others of entrenched behaviours eg

They are intense and persistent.
They cause significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, or they harm or have the potential to harm others (eg, children, nonconsenting adults).

This is similar to the assessment measures for problem alcohol use which look at the impact of drinking on an individual's life and those close.

^The DSM-5 states that adolescent and adult males with late-onset gender dysphoria "frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement." "Habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia" is given as a risk factor for gender dysphoria to develop."

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/08/2021 14:09

@GromblesofGrimbledon

I cannot think of another sexual fetish that a person would carry with them everywhere, every day. Into the streets, into their workplaces, on public transport, anywhere.

Crossdressing is now accepted under the trans umbrella even though AGP crossdressing is about fetish not identity.

Is there anything else a person would do for sexual thrills/satisfaction that would be acceptable to bring to the workplace?

Of course we're in a position where it's impossible to determine a man's reasons for dressing in traditionally female clothing. And I don't want to police what people wear. But a PP mentioned working with AGP males and changing her working pattern because of it. She felt uncomfortable. I don't know of anything else that would be permitted in a place of work like this.

This is exactly what baffles me.

I don't know how it came about generations ago that deeply distressed individuals who hated their body because of its sexual characteristics were offered hormone therapy and surgery, as a last resort. I wish it hadn't happened, frankly, as a psychological condition to me (as a layperson) seems to require therapy/counselling and perhaps drug treatment for depression/anxiety. I've been told that ECT still has a place in treating very severe depression, so maybe that too. Otherwise I can't see how medical treatments can resolve psychological issues.

What is even more baffling is how people who are quite clearly not seeking hormone treatment and surgery because of dysphoria have managed to get the NHS to greenlight and pay for it and across all the rich countries have persuaded HCPs and insurance companies to go along with this as a healthcare need/right.

I suppose it has a lot to do with the successful gender ideologists' strategy of attaching themselves to LGB groups so people have assumed this is a gay rights issue. Gay rights campaigners were extremely successful in changing attitudes and getting laws changed, and quite right too. But the consequence of this is that a lot of people are so keen to avoid any suggestion of homophobia that they've adopted wholesale a lot of other stuff that actually has nothing to do with gay rights/human rights at all, and in fact threatens the human rights of other groups.

Not enough clear thinking, unfortunately.

Gottalife · 11/08/2021 14:10

In the UK we use the ICD-10.

Fetishistic transvestism ( AGP not even recognised) is listed under Disorders of sexual preference and is a paraphilia.

Gender identity disorders are a different category.

GNCQ · 11/08/2021 14:19

Haha I'm not surprised my comment re puberty blockers above was deleted.

OldCrone · 11/08/2021 14:19

@Gottalife

In the UK we use the ICD-10.

Fetishistic transvestism ( AGP not even recognised) is listed under Disorders of sexual preference and is a paraphilia.

Gender identity disorders are a different category.

So are you saying that people with fetishistic transvestism are not 'trans' and shouldn't be under the Stonewall trans umbrella?

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Gottalife · 11/08/2021 14:26

So are you saying that people with fetishistic transvestism are not 'trans' and shouldn't be under the Stonewall trans umbrella?

Crazy thing is that Stonewall's trans umbrella includes groups that have absolutely nothing in common with other groups apart from being a minority.

GNCQ · 11/08/2021 14:26

But she doesn't talk about AGP. And it is not in the DSM-5 or ICD-10. The label needs to be binned.

No the DSM needs to catch up.

Fetishes and Autogynephilia
OldCrone · 11/08/2021 14:29

@Gottalife

So are you saying that people with fetishistic transvestism are not 'trans' and shouldn't be under the Stonewall trans umbrella?

Crazy thing is that Stonewall's trans umbrella includes groups that have absolutely nothing in common with other groups apart from being a minority.

So are you agreeing with that statement?

Still not sure what point you're trying to make re the distinction between fetishistic transvestism and autogynephilia.

GNCQ · 11/08/2021 14:31

In fact the DSM does mention AGP although it's not listed.

Fetishes and Autogynephilia
Gottalife · 11/08/2021 14:39

Still not sure what point you're trying to make re the distinction between fetishistic transvestism and autogynephilia.

Stonewall can put whoever they like under their illogical trans umbrella. It's their invention. I don't give a s**t. And people can always reject being labelled.

The point I was originally trying to make was AGP is not recognised here in the UK.

R0wantrees · 11/08/2021 14:42

Uncommon Ground Media article about probation worker's experience of management of male sexual offenders with paraphillias including autogynephillia.

Publlished January 29, 2020 by Issy Dickinson
Dickinson is a qualified Social Worker who was "employed by West Yorkshire Probation Service for twenty years, as a Sexual Offender Specialist, both in the community and in HMP Leeds. Within this role she concentrated on assessing and reducing the risk of harm presented to women and children, by men who rape and by paedophiles"
uncommongroundmedia.com/trans-identified-males-should-not-be-accessing-womens-spaces/

SmokedDuck · 11/08/2021 14:44

@PermanentTemporary

Fetishes are the flaw in pure gender critical thinking (mine included) which says that men wearing women's clothes shouldn't matter at all and that clothes shouldn't be coded m/f. It doesn't take account of what is going on around someone's choice to present unconventionally from a gender point of view. The strength of the different strands of wanting to appear outside convention, and performing an escape from your own life, and getting something sexual from your own appearance, and whether you want someone else to be involved/notice that, and the circumstances which you want that to occur in, seem to really vary. Grayson Perry for example seems to have a strong strand of being outside convention and of performing. But he's also referred to his 'sexy, fetishy thing' of cross dressing.

I believe that if there were no clothes coded masculine or feminine at all, it wouldn't make much difference to women's status in society. I also don't think it would happen. I think about Wild Swans, where the Communist Party mandated identical clothes for men and women, and women stayed up at night crafting the tiniest differences in their clothes in order to signal their femininity. In all this, the staus of women was genuinely better than in previous revolutionary China, but that wasn't saying bloody much, nor were women truly equal.

Yeah, I totally agree with this. There are societies where men and women wear basically the same thing because clothing technology is simple. But they still have ways of differentiating themselves as men and women.

Human beings are naturally very interested in identifying their sex. Even the desire to gender-bend isn't fundamentally about destroying clothing as a cultural marker of sex. It's about using it to create a frisson. The tendency to talk about people who are rock stars or performers as breaking down barriers is on the wrong track completely, they need those things to create their image, to make a little stutter in our awareness, to manipulate our awareness of femaleness and maleness.

Human beings are never going to stop being interested in sex, and representing it in material culture. Trying to create that scenario as a solution is not only a waste of time, it's trying to push people into a way of thinking that is unnatural and requires ignoring reality, which always has unfortunate corollaries.

So yes, for people who have a fetish about cross-dressing, that is about the frisson. It doesn't matter whether the culture says women wear dresses, or paint their hands red, or wear their hair differently. It might be inevitable that some people have this problem of sexual fixation, but we should be trying to minimize it and help them by having clear social boudaries around it.

That being said - my understanding of AGP is that cross dressing in public isn't necessarily directly linked to sexual behavior in every case. What Blanchard describes with his patients is that the experience fetishistic ideation in some begins to create a kind of disassociation with the male body, resulting in some cases in sever body dysphoria based on sex. One potential treatment in hard cases being living as a transexual. It seems like it would be much better for all involved to treat before things get that bad, and there are discussions about what that means for other people in terms of recognizing that, and the current approach to gender makes that all the more unlikely to happen. But I am not convinced that all people who try that approach are actively enacting their fetish.

MRDTH1979 · 11/08/2021 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

PermanentTemporary · 11/08/2021 14:51

What is he saying about it MRD? No I don't think wearing makeup means that he is necessarily sexually aroused by thinking of himself as a woman.

R0wantrees · 11/08/2021 15:15

Angus Fox has written a seven-part series about some of the drivers causing teenage boys to identify as 'transgender' quillette.com/author/angus-fox/

Gender: A Wider Lens
(podcast)
gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/20-gender-dysphoria-in-boys-part-1
gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/21-gender-dysphoria-in-boys-part-2-a-conversation-with-angus-fox