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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Have feminists brought this upon themselves?

302 replies

Lessthanaballpark · 09/08/2021 20:40

I’ve heard this opinion so much lately, mostly amongst men who seem to be enjoying the struggle between feminism and trans-activism and the threat to women’s rights.

The opinion is that feminists have been attacking male spaces for years and now are getting their comeuppance.

Or that we’ve created the language of inclusion and gender that has led to this.

It’s a mean spirited attitude for sure. But is there any truth to it? Has feminism hoisted itself with its own petard?

OP posts:
Lessthanaballpark · 14/08/2021 09:05

@RAF789 thanks that looks interesting. I feel about her the same way I do about Douglas Murray (and Peterson to a small extent). I agree with certain aspects and feel slightly uncomfortable about potentially aligning myself with people who hold views in other areas which I virulently disagree with.

But I think that is part of the issue today, that things are so polarised. We feel we have to choose a side and stick to it, without seeing the nuances in a debate.

OP posts:
BaronMunchausen · 14/08/2021 09:56

[quote Helleofabore]I have seen many, many TRA's on here insist that human beings as a species can literally change sex and that saying that this isn't a biological reality is transphobic.

Human beings are not clownfish?

Sounds like an inspired time for a music break...

[/quote] The clownfish is an instructive example: the point of reference for its transition is biological, ie we know it changes sex because it shifts between systems designed to produce large or small gametes. Not because it puts on a dress or takes charge of the remote.
Dervel · 14/08/2021 11:35

@RAF789 thanks for that it was an interesting watch. I think she lost the plot when she got to antisemitism, but I was on board up until that.

NecessaryScene · 14/08/2021 12:39

The clownfish is an instructive example: the point of reference for its transition is biological, ie we know it changes sex because it shifts between systems designed to produce large or small gametes. Not because it puts on a dress or takes charge of the remote.

I do sometimes like to imagine what trans clownfish activism would look like - the debates between clownfish who had actually changed sex and those who hadn't changed sex but insisted that you couldn't really tell if a clownfish had changed sex, and it's all a spectrum anyway...

Furries · 14/08/2021 13:00

A certain TRA is all over their account today, basically saying that those who are GC encourage the incel movement. Words fail me.

Artichokeleaves · 14/08/2021 15:27

@Furries

A certain TRA is all over their account today, basically saying that those who are GC encourage the incel movement. Words fail me.
A quick trawl through twitter reveals a tendency to anything getting national publicity and attention as a 'bad thing' being very quickly blamed in this direction. It appears to be in the hope of increasing perceived negative association, and logic and evidence seems to rarely play a part, hence trying to use 'religious extreme right' in the UK despite that its an American thing that does not exist here, and most GC articles, comments etc come from people demonstrably left leaning. Image before facts.

I'm quite surprised that so far those who are GC haven't yet been blamed for climate change, but I'm sure it will come.

NecessaryScene · 14/08/2021 16:17

GCs ate my hamster.

Waitwhat23 · 14/08/2021 19:33

I'm surprised they're not claiming that there was a GC feminist at the grassy knoll.

HeddaAga · 14/08/2021 20:16

@NecessaryScene

GCs ate my hamster.
🤣
longwayoff · 14/08/2021 20:19

Are you a man? Presumably, as I dont believe any woman could be dim enough to ask the question.

Aparallaxia · 14/08/2021 21:52

Dervel says 'And also the “lived experience” claim. It makes it damn difficult to make objective claims, when all someone has to do to rebut you is say “my lived subjective experience trumps anything you have to say”.'

I'd like to endorse this. I am not sure what the origins of this trend are but some part must have been played by post-modernists and deconstructionists, who have tried systematically to destabilize and delegitimize all sources of authority, so that ultimately all we are left with is either really complex "negotiations" (one of the decons' fav terms) between "loci of power" or someone's personal narrative, which can't be challenged because the narrator is the sole authority for it.

There is a parallel with "gender identity" here, though "GI Joe" or "GI Jane" is a real object, conjured into being by its owner. Gender has emerged as a kind of personalized Aristotelian essence—the "what-it-is-to-be-me", the τὸ τί ἦν ἐμοὶ εἶναι (the messentia?). Unlike subjective experiences, this is something objectively real; unlike a shared reality, this is something to which the owner alone has privileged access.

In short, they've come up with a metaphysical Catch-22. You can't see see this "feeling", or hear it, touch it, taste it, or smell it. There are no scientific instruments that can detect it (despite what some TWs claim there is no such thing as a "female brain" or a "female hypothalamus"). There is and can be no documentation of it, as a historical event can be documented. But it's nonetheless an unchallengeable guarantee of something absolutely real, they assert, and everybody else has to kowtow to the reality that the owner of the feeling is the sole authority for, who has then reified it, i.e. made into a thing. And made it into a Thing, too, given that everyone is talking about it.

This gives us the worst of relativism (there is no shared reality, so we can't disagree about it) coupled with the worst of naive realism (this is just something real, so we can't disagree about it), both in one ugly package. This might not matter if it concerned only a few academics nobody's ever heard of, but it doesn't.

Similarly, post-modernist thinkers attempt to construe every event in terms of power, with the only kind of power that is legitimate being an individual's power over his or her own life—which of course threatens to collapse into libertarianism.

longwayoff · 14/08/2021 21:54

Agreeing with Melanie Phillips is bad for your health. Check yourself.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2021 12:45

A certain TRA is all over their account today,

Which one?

Lessthanaballpark · 15/08/2021 19:26

@Aparallaxia what a great post. Yep, I think it's true that feminism has emphasized the "lived experience", but mostly in response the patriarchy's minimizing of women's feelings. So, you can tell a woman that she's taking the issue of say, catcalling, too seriously, but if that is how she feels then her feelings are valid.

And the backlash against feminism has often stated "you can have all the quotas you want, but you can't argue with biology" as if feminists were denying the reality of sex rather than arguing for equal treatment and opportunities.

So I guess the men who gleefully say "this is what you asked for!" are referring to a strawman version of feminism that they themselves invented.

OP posts:
SmokedDuck · 15/08/2021 21:38

[quote Lessthanaballpark]@Aparallaxia what a great post. Yep, I think it's true that feminism has emphasized the "lived experience", but mostly in response the patriarchy's minimizing of women's feelings. So, you can tell a woman that she's taking the issue of say, catcalling, too seriously, but if that is how she feels then her feelings are valid.

And the backlash against feminism has often stated "you can have all the quotas you want, but you can't argue with biology" as if feminists were denying the reality of sex rather than arguing for equal treatment and opportunities.

So I guess the men who gleefully say "this is what you asked for!" are referring to a strawman version of feminism that they themselves invented.[/quote]
I'm not sure it's true that feminism has always gone after equality of opportunity. Like other CT influenced movements, it often will look at statistical disparities and assume they indicate some sort of injustice that needs to be remedied.

bootsyjam · 16/08/2021 11:18

@toomanytrees

Although the sentiments related in the original post are goady and the the reactions indignant, it should be possible to have a serious discussion of the downsides of aspects of feminism. There are always tradeoffs.

Reading these boards, I get the impression that feminists do not value what has historically been the female contribution to society. Counterintuitively, what is valued is the male realm. There is little curiosity about how women did exercise power, how they ran families and social networks etc, how they made their way in the world. It is not a stretch to argue that feminists were so focused on entering the male world, that they didn't imagine the female world as worth protecting.

Certain aspects of feminist ideology seek to downplay the differences between men and women: women would be more like men if it were not for socialization/oppression/patriarchy. But women and men are different biologically and psychologically. By claiming otherwise, it could be argued that feminists have left the door open for gender ideology.

Am late to the party and have read through most of the thread and was struck by the fact that an interesting ( and what appeared to be a perfectly reasonable and well argued) post near the start was totally ignored by everyone posting. Any comments on this, it seemed a worthy counterpoint regarding the lack of recognition for trade offs and I would love to hear some replies.
Waitwhat23 · 16/08/2021 17:30

Reading these boards, I get the impression that feminists do not value what has historically been the female contribution to society. Counterintuitively, what is valued is the male realm. There is little curiosity about how women did exercise power, how they ran families and social networks etc, how they made their way in the world.

I found it puzzling. Those who post on these boards very much value the contribution of women to society. Most posters quote women's experiences and share stories of what women have done throughout history as part of society, both as part of the pivotal role which they have played in society, as well as trailblazers who have fought for women's rights.

There is definite curiosity expressed here about women's lived experiences. They were our mother's and grandmother's experiences and they shape our experiences. Posters here are well aware of that. That's why the post puzzled me.

Aparallaxia · 16/08/2021 19:30

Waitwhat23 I agree. I was puzzled by this post as I have never got the impression that we undervalue the female contribution to culture and society. Indeed, we feel it has been undervalued by others. It is feminism that turned historians' focus on women's and girls' lives and activities, seeing them as distinct and worthy of study in themselves, rather than as adjuncts to men. It is feminists who continue to press for the collection of data about women, in order to show what we do (and what is done to us), and who continue to emphasise the value of women's understanding of themselves, their bodies, and their lives.

(Who invented the basket? No-one knows but I have always felt it must have been a woman.)

bootsyjam · 17/08/2021 11:33

Thanks very much for your considered and thoughtful responses. I understand and agree with your points about women's contributions but am curious that this is the only small aspect of the post has been picked up and discussed, rather than the broader issues that were raised afterwards.

To be clear, the author of the post is linking women's contribution to society with (soft) power and maybe that makes people uncomfortable. After all, modern feminist (and left wing theory) is all about power and whether people have been oppressed by not possessing it. It's not all about who invented a basket, or who discovered gravity/penicillin etc. It's not that type of contribution at all. It's the soft power wielded by women in societies.

""There is little curiosity about how women did exercise power, how they ran families and social networks etc, how they made their way in the world. It is not a stretch to argue that feminists were so focused on entering the male world, that they didn't imagine the female world as worth protecting."

The thread is about whether feminists have brought it on themselves.

There are no further thoughts except the pinpointing of contributions to society in a narrow context without the full context of the post in it's entirety? How about this as an interesting point of discussion:

"It is not a stretch to argue that feminists were so focused on entering the male world, that they didn't imagine the female world as worth protecting.

"Certain aspects of feminist ideology seek to downplay the differences between men and women: women would be more like men if it were not for socialization/oppression/patriarchy. But women and men are different biologically and psychologically. By claiming otherwise, it could be argued that feminists have left the door open for gender ideology."

Seems pretty interesting to me but....

Waitwhat23 · 17/08/2021 11:55

OK, what are your thoughts on the points raised in that post? You've picked up bits you find interesting but haven't actually made any comments on those points.

What do you think?

Additionally the sex and gender board will be mainly populated by (for want of a better term, GC feminists or radical feminists). If you are looking for opinions from a wider range of feminists (which could be indicated by 'Certain aspects of feminist ideology seek to downplay the differences between men and women'), you might find starting an additional thread on the Feminism:chat board might give you some wider opinions.

SmokedDuck · 17/08/2021 12:16

There is absolutly a sense where feminism in the 60s and 70s undervalued traditional female roles, and could actually be quite unpleasant about them. It's a real undercurrent in a lot of the feminist writings of the period.

There was so much pressure to get women into the workplace, as if the goal should be to have women doing exactly all the same things as men, in the same numbers. So rather than creating social structures to allow women to have security when they were divorced with kids, or didn't work or have a pension, a huge amount of effort went into making sure their career paths could mimic men's as closely as possible. Some of this, like maternity leave protections, was quite useful, but the overall effect has been that it's still the case that being a mother or not entering the paid workforce means a woman is at risk. There has not only been little progress in that, women can be worse off as there is an expectation that women who make such a risky, unfeminist choice deserve what they get.

suggestionsplease1 · 17/08/2021 12:22

I too wonder about the value system at times - there can seem to be an over-valuing of the male world and a de-valuing of the female world at times (granted - whatever that actually is - unfortunately you have to use the terminology to attempt to describe what you mean whilst not really wanting to endorse any fixed ideas of what this entails, as I believe in complete freedom of the sexes to traverse the generalisations)

One aspect of this has struck me with 'cross' dressing - if women wear stereotypically male clothes, even ultra-masculine, this is not typically presently considered problematic. I don't think there are general thoughts that women who do this are attempting to ridicule, mock or parody men.

However, a lot of people seem to think that men who dress in more stereotypically women's clothes are mocking women, that this is insulting, making a parody out of women. Either that, or it is fetishistic.

It strikes me that to get to that distinction you have to be in the mindset that what is male is desirable and aspirational, and have devalued perceptions of femaleness - that nobody would naturally want to imitate this, so of course there must be an element of ridicule in any male that does.

I think that's a big problem and is doubling down on the masculine/feminine value distinction, but it seems clear that many GC feminists are not happy about men presenting in a more stereotypically feminine way.

Mango1982 · 17/08/2021 12:38

I agree you can’t argue their is no difference between men and women and then be up set when men say yeah I agree so I gonna be a women it’s all just based on social contucts

So the lesson is be careful what weapons you weild because at some point they will be used against you hence my dismay is some feminists still believing some speech they dislike should be banned while crying about TRAs banning their speech 🤷‍♀️

Waitwhat23 · 17/08/2021 12:49

many GC feminists are not happy about men presenting in a more stereotypically feminine way

I don't agree with this at all. Harry Styles (as an example) has worn dresses and other pieces of clothing which have historically been worn by women in magazine shoots and to awards ceremonies. I, like many feminists, are fighting against gender stereotypes and believe that people should not be constrained by whether clothes are considered 'men's' or women's'. Harry Styles isn't saying he's anything more than a man who likes to/wants to wear dresses, he doesn't appear to be mocking women, just wearing what he wants to.

What many feminists do object to is the wearing of clothes in order to mock the sex who 'usually' wears them, usually combined with hugely sexualised clothing, 'comically' large fake boobs and jokes about how disgusting women are (the term fishy, commonly used by drag Queens, being an example). They are devaluing women. Not 'GC' feminists.

Waitwhat23 · 17/08/2021 12:54

I agree you can’t argue their is no difference between men and women and then be up set when men say yeah I agree so I gonna be a women it’s all just based on social contucts

You'll find very few posters on here who will argue that there is no difference between men and women. A quick peruse of any thread on here will quickly show that women here believe that there are differences based on sex, but that nonsensical gender stereotypes should be challenged.