Have feminists brought this upon themselves?

[Lessthanaballpark]

I’ve heard this opinion so much lately, mostly amongst men who seem to be enjoying the struggle between feminism and trans-activism and the threat to women’s rights.

The opinion is that feminists have been attacking male spaces for years and now are getting their comeuppance.

Or that we’ve created the language of inclusion and gender that has led to this.

It’s a mean spirited attitude for sure. But is there any truth to it? Has feminism hoisted itself with its own petard?

@CuriousaboutSamphire

So changes to the GG constitution are done by what means? By edict!

The management must have a structure in which proposals are voted on and changed if voted in. Unless the GG are ran by one person who makes changes regardless of others opinions. Not sure you quite understand how such organisations work! Happily there are a few GG Leaders posting who might decide to come and give you their fiirst hand experience.

Meanwhile you could Search for older threads about GGs and the shoddy way they made this decision.. and its ramifications. They all have Girl Guides in teh title!

In any event i would suggest that the number of 'males' in the GG are relatively small as a percentage. In that I would be hard pressed to find any 'males' in the local GG's in our area That's nice. I'll be sure to tell the female GG leaders who were ousted for protesting the sneaky way GGs decided to allow male bodies in sleeping areas whilst keeping the parents were unaware- TWAW after all - and TGTGs!

Of course, you could just ask about it, it being something you are unaware of. Rather than simply denying it, effectively calling posters liars!

MN Poster: GGs didn't tell parents that they were allowing boys to sleep in tents with girls, if those boys said they were transgirls, because they were all girls together, Inclusivity etc.

You: No, they didn't, or if they did it would have been consensual

Normal response: Did they? No! How can I read up on that?

I've not called posters on here liars

How many instances are we talking about here then where males have shared tents with girls at GG's outings - as i think the numbers are important here.

Nope! You've still missed it.

History. Not recently. Go back 100/200+ years and look at when our current social mores were constructed/concreted.

Look at the inherent inequity in medicine, as well as law etc. All based in that masculine history.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/13/the-female-problem-male-bias-in-medical-trials

An easy, if trite, primer...

Invisible Women really is worth a read.

And I'm not here to irritate - just putting points across. You post has told me to 'stay and engage'. And I don't use Twitter or anything similar and would not re-quote peoples views in here anywhere else. I hoped this was a closed discussion type room to share and engage with ideas & thoughts I didn't say YOU ddid Tweet, just that your posts are very simialr to those who come here in bad faith and get some of us deleted and/or banned.

And it ain't closed, it's all public, open to all!

Now, you can continue to ;put points acorss' or you can actually engage ina 2-way discussion. I've guven you some more information about the Guides... you have ignored it and focuseed on a perceived personal sleight!

Can I refer back to my previous advice? MN databases must be full of threads with posts like this from posters like this.

China was very different to the ussr. Im not saying the soviet system was doog but it undeniably brought in greater equalities. Alexander Kollontai (still read as a great feminist) was the first ever woman minister in a government in the 1917 sovieet government along with a great many more women with government roles. They brought in radical divorce and marraige laws,equal voting rights and were the first state to legalise abortion. The numbers of women going into things like engineering far outstripped any other country. The army was a natural progression. Look up the Night Witches air squadron. schoolshistory.org.uk/topics/european-history/russia-soviet-union/women-in-the-ussr/

I've not called posters on here liars Read what I actually posted. Your continued disbelief effectively calls posters here liars.

How many instances are we talking about here then where males have shared tents with girls at GG's outings - as i think the numbers are important here. How could we know? Nobody counts them. Just as the MoJ has no idea how many male bodied people are in the female state - they don't discriminate, they are inclusive!

@AssassinatedBeauty

Can I refer back to my previous advice? MN databases must be full of threads with posts like this from posters like this.

Why is that an issue.? They have the space.

I do think it is useful to continue to post just for the lurkers. I was one once upon a time and a now defunct poster who always responded to safegurding issues really opened my eyes!

So, the American Black woman over 35 giving birth who lost their lives last year didn't die from medical issues that the Drs & nurses battled to avoid. There will be a decision made by medical staff not to try too hard to save her life because she was a woman? Well I stand corrected. I certainly wont risk taken my wife or daughters to any hospital if they fall ill if that practice still continues.

Again, please read Invisible Women.

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@SmokedDuck, I'm not up to speed with feminist theory and research, apologies. Are there any well known feminists who argue for this strict 50/50 in all areas approach to equality? It's just not something I'm familiar with, having always seen feminism as about liberation from patriarchy and recognising women as having some inevitable differences (and consequent needs) but still as valuable/important/equal/human as men. [/quote]
Gosh, well known feminists who would say that - I am not sure if they would say it directly. You certainly see a lot of equivocation about motherhood or even childcare as real work from some. Gloria Steinem comes to mind in this way of thinking. But I don't actually think asking about more famous individuals really speaks to the way feminism as a movement has manifested in our culture overall.

Things like the way literature or film have changed in response to feminism have significantly shaped people's thinking, even though they may not represent a sort of academic feminism.

What you will see is feminists who advocate for bringing women into the workplace on the same basis as men in order to create equality. So for example the idea that fathers must take half of parental leave. Or when we talk about the wage gap, you rarely see much willingness to consider that the problem is as much to do with not supporting motherhood as it is about labour laws or wages or pensions.

Oh it's not an issue and I'm not at all concerned about their data storage! I've been around here for a decade or so and just was caught up imagining how many times this dynamic has repeated itself. Perhaps you're right about lurkers, I just hate it when an interesting discussion gets turned into something else.

How many instances are we talking about here then where males have shared tents with girls at GG's outings - as i think the numbers are important here.

No, it actually is not as important as the many girls who are now excluded from GG outings because they simply don't know who will be in the tent and who might be allowed in the showers with them.

As a parent of a GG, this effects many girls and their families. Religious families. Abused girls. Girls who simply are going through puberty and wish to have privacy and dignity.

That is just as important a consideration.

How many girls being excluded due to this change?

That parents weren't consulted with, and many, many parents only discover from news reporting or word of mouth.

The answer from all trans activists is n+1. Because girls are not their priority.

It's a hard balance to strike.

I am taking Felix at face value. Answering what seems to be a very confused poster who might be asking for help in thinking outside the box, in a wider context!

The fact that the early post-Revolutionary Russian Empire was in some ways an improvement on Czarist autocracy is a low bar that would challenge a world-champion limbo dancer.

Regards the women in the Red army in WW2, the female tank crews led the charge, then as the 'Rape of Berlin' spiralled out of control, became victims of it themselves on a massive scale.

False equivalence....
US has withdrawn from Afghanistan, it is no longer an active war zone. So it’s laughable to claim that only 2 US soldiers usually died in that war zone per year in an effort to show it’s less dangerous to fight a war than for a 35 yr old black woman giving birth.

watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/military

You also have to look at death rate not total deaths. The war in Afghanistan had a death rate spanning from a low of 5 per 1000 soldiers per year to 19 per 1000 soldiers per year.
academic.oup.com/ije/article/36/4/841/670068

This is much higher than the death rate of black women in childbirth of 37 in a 100,000.....which translates to 0.37 in 1000.
www.heart.org/en/news/2021/02/10/why-black-women-are-less-likely-to-survive-pregnancy-and-whats-being-done-about-it

So obviously a soldier in Afghanistan War death rate of 5 in 1000 during quieter year to a peak of 19 in a 1000 during the hotter year, is magnitudes larger than a black woman’s risk of child birth death of 0.37 in 1000.

Seriously enough women suffer from anxiety about childbirth such that we don’t need false claims that it’s safer to be on the front lines of a war than to have a baby...... 🙄

This thread shows how little Guiders at least were consulted about the changes - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4247374-girl-guiding

How many instances are we talking about here then where males have shared tents with girls at GG's outings - as i think the numbers are important here.

Yes, the numbers are important as without safeguarding measures in place, the number should be 0. It's not.

How many instances are we talking about here then where males have shared tents with girls at GG's outings - as i think the numbers are important here. You've had quite a variety of answers to that one now @Felix125

What do you think now?

How many instances are we talking about here then where males have shared tents with girls at GG's outings - as i think the numbers are important here.

This is just ignorant. And actively undermines safeguarding.

You might as well say well, look, how many DBS checks can we discount, I think numbers are important here.

The policy allows for mixed sex environments from tents to showers. It also expressly says parents and girl guides do not need to know.

Girl guides are being manipulated into a mixed sex environment without their consent, or that of their parents, or even their knowledge.

"How many". Strewth.

Not sure Felix is going to come back to that one!

I hope that the prolonged silence is because Felix is doing some reading, or maybe having tea, rather than ignoring some inconvenent facts.

I would like Felix to have been posting in good faith.

I am heartily tired of bad faith posters.

Come back Felix!

I am trying to get my head around this…. Are we minimising the fact that black women have a frightening risk of dying in childbirth, much higher than white women?

Are people saying that this risk is smaller than certain war zones so should be disregarded?

And are people saying not to discuss it so we don’t scare white women? I hope I am going crazy here….

And as for the GG… are people trying to state that it isn’t an issue as there is no factual statistics which we not are allowed to collect?

I'd like to say to @Felix125 that you personally might not be hear to goad and annoy. I'll reserve my judgement on this.

I'm an ancient old crone who has discussed feminism and equality for many many years with many many men who, frankly, do not engage brain and either don't want to learn/listen or who want to goad. And they use the same type of language and arguments as you. So I simply cannot be bothered to engage and educate any more. Read Invisible Women. Read some Angela Davis (to get the intersection of race and class and sexism)

And yes, there are issues that are pertinent to men (m on m violence, male suicide rates) and frankly? I have stopped talking about those too because the only men who talk about them only ever bring it up when we are talking about things that affect women Funny that.

And to get back to the thread title: again a resounding no. Feminists didn't bring this on themselves.

I am not going to enter into the first one but the GG one...

I susect that GGs like the MoJ don't actually keep count. The reasoning will be along the same lines, TWAW... and anyone who identifies as a woman would be housed in the female estate - as confirmed by a recent court case - it basically said "yes, we know it is wrong but, erm, tis the law"! The MoJ can't tell us because they don't record gender, just self identified sex!

GGs initial statements were very similar in intent.

In the U.K., women couldn’t vote on equal terms with men until 1924.

Just correcting myself - it was of course 1928.

It appears there is a misunderstanding around the term 'labour' here. Yes Labour means work, but in terms of black women and childbirth it also means actually giving birth, as in 'in labour'

I went on a date the other week and the bloke (a child psychologist) said he thought that the whole trans thing was “rubbish” but “all these moaning feminists won’t get anywhere as they’re just annoying everyone“.

I've recounted this before, but I've found that many non woke men on social media, who aren't allies of the trans movement, are so dismissive of it that they would rather make bog standard MRA talking points at any women speaking up against the political agenda, even though in some ways they agree with us that gender identity ideology is absurd.

That's aside from the ones actively using it as a cloak to be openly misogynist to a group of "bad" women with impunity.

@BatmansBat

I am trying to get my head around this…. Are we minimising the fact that black women have a frightening risk of dying in childbirth, much higher than white women?

Are people saying that this risk is smaller than certain war zones so should be disregarded?

And are people saying not to discuss it so we don’t scare white women? I hope I am going crazy here….

And as for the GG… are people trying to state that it isn’t an issue as there is no factual statistics which we not are allowed to collect?

Not at all. A prior poster claimed that black women have a greater chance of dying in childbirth than a soldier serving in the Afghanistan War.

I was correcting this fake fact.