Lionel Shriver in the Times

[Igneococcus]

On purity spirals and trans:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d8219be4-f6c9-11eb-8f01-2c678acbb979?shareToken=dd94dd81997c944a6778434967fc9416

Thanks OP.

This is so true...

"Further, young people are currently cast into a hell of obligingness. Their parents probably took drugs themselves, are cool with premarital sex and often endorse much of the “woke” agenda. How’s a poor kid to rebel? Fervent embrace of the rage for gender swapping offers a rare opportunity to separate from their infernally permissive, infuriatingly simpatico parents."

[quote Igneococcus]On purity spirals and trans:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d8219be4-f6c9-11eb-8f01-2c678acbb979?shareToken=dd94dd81997c944a6778434967fc9416[/quote]
archive version: archive.is/pHvTQ

So erm I’ve not read Trans by Helen Joyce yet as I’ve taken a few months to detach. Ready to get back in and went to Amazon to buy before sending a copy to dcs headteacher. It is listed under ‘psychology & violence’, off topic I know, is violence the correct category???

www.amazon.co.uk/Trans-When-Ideology-Meets-Reality/dp/0861540492/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&crid=2W4U88Q0UC3GI&keywords=trans+helen+joyce&sprefix=trans+helen%2Caps%2C179&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1628274019&sr=8-1

Click on the book and you can read the first chapter and a half for free.

(PS: This "Lionel" is a girl with a boys name? Must be Trans...)

Well AgnesNaismith - in the eyes of the deluded, words are literal violence so maybe......

Lionel's article is really excellent. The comments underneath don't disappoint either.

I love Lionel Shriver's books but have been avoiding her newspaper articles, interviews with her etc for the last couple of years because she usually annoys me so much. I might need to be a bit more open minded; that's a really good article.

cariadlet she does write really well on this topic. I was just thinking, having read OJ’s scrawl earlier, all of these awful people on the wrong side of history really can write.

One sceptical British editor wrote, “Debate over trans issues is incredibly polarised and siloed, and if we are going to torch our own credentials as woke members in good standing we would prefer to do it for a book that has some chance of selling.”

More fool you! Well done Helen Joyce and shame on Waterstones too.

I was just thinking, having read OJ’s scrawl earlier, all of these awful people on the wrong side of history really can write.

I was thinking exactly the same thing! Douglas Murray may be far right, or hard right, or whatever it is OJ accuses him of being, but he's a much better writer than OJ. Helen Joyce is also extremely lucid. Janice Turner is a superb columnist who, unlike Owen, has won Columnist of the Year. I can't think of anyone on the trans side who is a decent writer.

I can't think of anyone on the trans side who is a decent writer.

Adam Wagner who is a definite sympathiser and tends to overlook that women have human rights that are compromised is a decent writer (not gifted but –ish). Several other (male) lawyers - none of whom I can name but are reasonable writers in the way that so may barristers/lawyers are when they're accustomed to writing briefs.

Helena Kennedy - decent writer, TWAW even if she doesn't write much beyond the tired slogans on this specific topic.

I feel encouraged when I see articles like this, especially with the supportive comments.....

Excellent article.

Somehow, I'm much happier when it's framed in terms of "Reality, dammit!" "Facts, for God's sake!" than the whole free speech angle.

I mean, I'm all for free speech. It's even more important to point out that what's being suppressed is speech about facts.

I haven’t read the latest article yet but Lionel Shriver is great on this subject as as a teenager she changed her name from Margaret to Lionel.

This is an article she wrote in 2016.

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/gender-good-for-nothing

Thanks OP, and excellent article.

Thank goodness Matthew Parris is away!

Do you think this comment is by the actual Ian Hislop?

Like other posters I can't stand the woman , she's a real bitter pill of a racist. But she has a clever turn of phrase a la Burchill. The more the merrier on this topic.

I'd say so @TheCountessofFitzdotterel. Hislop is an Anglican afaik. Always struck me as a moderate Conservative type. Like Parris

Thanks for sharing that essay @RoastChicory

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Do you think this comment is by the actual Ian Hislop?

He often comments in The Times.

The Times readership are thoroughly GC, though the Times, in true tradition will always give the opposing view space. The comments are excellent, so is the piece but like others I'm not a fan of LS

Good to know re Hislop. It’s not that surprising as Private Eye has been good on this recently but nice to see him put it so clearly nonetheless.

[quote RoastChicory]I haven’t read the latest article yet but Lionel Shriver is great on this subject as as a teenager she changed her name from Margaret to Lionel.

This is an article she wrote in 2016.

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/gender-good-for-nothing[/quote]
This article is absolutely brilliant. Totally spot on.

Trying to think of subtle way of getting my three DDs to read it. Youngest one has well and truly swallowed all the woo bulls**t.

@RoastChicory thanks for this link. Brilliant article, she's right, with her childhood gender expression she would be at massive risk today.

I long held a dislike of Lionel Shriver but since I've been following the issue of the gender identity ideology I realised I needed to focus on what she was saying, a mixture of right and wrong, rather than my feelings about who she is.

Taking a discussion between Douglas Murray and Shriver linked to on another thread, have a look at the concluding remarks by Shriver and how she resists going for the most convenient conclusion:

I'm still not sure what I think about her but now I welcome that she wants to contribute to a debate.

Have just had a look at the comments under the article and they're excellent. Over 1800 of them with the vast majority (that I've read) supportive with lots of knowledge and expertise shared. .