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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

777 replies

HermioneKipper · 06/08/2021 10:34

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Helleofabore · 06/08/2021 11:57

Ok, so female people may be excluded and affected but they don't matter as much as the natal male people who wish to use female single sex spaces

Well.... the OIC has just used this type of argument too. We know it is unfair, but women you need to accept that life is unfair and that these males are special and it is a human right you know to play sport (ignoring that they CAN still play and compete with other males).

It is very prevalent and much time has been invested to ensure the message is consistent now. Decades if you read the Denton report... (but we know that one doesn't really exist and if it does, it was just a small group of very extreme activists, and if they exist, they are not as important as my mate/family member... and so it goes)

Comingoutfighting · 06/08/2021 11:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Ninkanink · 06/08/2021 11:58

I think that was a mistake and meant to say many posts did.

However, even if that’s the case, the offending comments should have been deleted and the thread should have been left to stand. Further discussion should have been allowed.

Chickenyhead · 06/08/2021 11:59

I would just like to actually learn what cannot be discussed. So I don't do it by accident.

It feels like a minefield

baroqueandblue · 06/08/2021 12:00

Whatever the fate of this thread, for the record I'm bookmarking to show my support for OP and previously deleted thread.

Chickenyhead · 06/08/2021 12:00

Can the guidelines be expanded or amended, I didn't see that one coming.

I see this one, but not that one

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 06/08/2021 12:02

@NonnyMouse1337

We really must insist that discussions surrounding sex and gender remain civil, and as many of the posts on your deleted thread did not break our guidelines, we don't think it's an unreasonable ask.

That makes no sense at all. The specific posts that break guidelines should be deleted instead of an entire thread that by your own admission was mostly fine. This is usually what happens on other threads. So why was an entire thread that was civil and had useful contributions pulled off? Confused

How does it not make sense? Not being glib - genuine question!

Many posts were what we'd consider civil and reasonable, as many again were breaking guidelines. This is why the entire thread was removed. The entire thread was not civil.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 06/08/2021 12:05

This is a widely reported fact. The GIRES charity has stated that around 85% of transwomen retain their penis, and Janice Turner said in the Times last week that over 80% of transwomen retain their penis

We're also not allowed to point out that it is the teens and young people having the majority of surgeries. Young females getting double mastectomies and taking drugs that cause their internal sex organs to atrophy. Young males who've been on blockers whose sex organs never mature.

Why is this? WHY do youngsters have to have surgery and hormones to be their 'true selves' when the adult males can simply declare they are women. No dysphoria, surgery or drugs. 🤔

Helleofabore · 06/08/2021 12:06

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet

So, was it the title?

Was it the topic in general?

Can the % of males who retain their penis and full use of their penis be discussed in a thread in this section?

It would be helpful to know this please.

CharlieParley · 06/08/2021 12:08

That's really fascinating CharlieParley. Is there a link or archive anywhere online to read this?

Unfortunately not. Just before Covid I was in the National Archives of Scotland, reading my way through everything that's been archived about the process of making the Gender Recognition Act, including handwritten notes from meetings. (Papers archived in Scotland are made available to the public five years before those archived in England.)

Not sure if the archives are open again.

Ninkanink · 06/08/2021 12:08

Okay so that is VERY POOR, then.

You do not delete a very important thread, discussing very important issues, where many posts are not unreasonable nor breaking guidelines!

If what you mean is, well, it would take a long time to sift through and ensure we’re only deleting the comments that warrant it...well... they’re YOUR guidelines! If they create extra work due to the policy of bending so vigorously to reports from the other side well, that’s ON YOU (not you personally Flowers ) and our right to discuss our lawful protections shouldn’t suffer for it!

I am sick of it always being our side that’s censored. Most of us don’t even ever report things because we believe in the right to speak one’s opinion!

Blibbyblobby · 06/08/2021 12:09

The thing is, it's supposed to be virtuous to deny the evidence in front of you, look right at it and say what you are supposed to, which some would term as compulsion to lie.

Virtuous is exactly the right word. For most it's not done out of malice but out of a misconcetion that it's a good thing.

The framing is something like this:

"The sex differences we think we see are just something our culture has taught us to see. If we hadn't been corrupted by our culture we'd not see them at all, we'd see the "real" truth.

Those who are corrupted by culture (ie all of us) cannot help but "see" but we should ignore/deny that knowledge and act as if we do perceive this "truth", because then we are closer to what is really true and not perpetuating the cultural corruption.

Anyone who refuses to ignore the knowledge is choosing to remain corrupt and is irredeemable. The ones who not only continue to see but actively try to draw attention to it are the worst of all, they are trying to drag us all back into the corruption with them."

The worst of it is, some of it is right. The social constructions attached to sex (what GC people mean by gender) ARE exactly that...a cultural lens we need to learn to recognise and ignore. (Acknowledging that while the end goal is no differences between men and women except where directly required by our physical differences, within a society trying to become gender-free but constructed from sexist foundations, sex-specific social structures to counter that will be needed for as long as the underlying inequality is present).

The genderist misconception/slight of hand has been to frame all consideration of different needs or capabilities due to sex / sexism as invalid cultural baggage and then twist the path to acceptance and self-expression from "acknowledge and support immutable sex differences, fight and remove sexism and gender construction" to "deny immutable sex differences, celebrate gender construction"

Thelnebriati · 06/08/2021 12:09

@Chickenyhead

I would just like to actually learn what cannot be discussed. So I don't do it by accident.

It feels like a minefield

I had a post deleted recently for using the word 'grooming' on a thread about illegal breaches in safeguarding, mandated reporters keeping secrets, and people teaching children to distrust their parents. But not a strike.
HermioneKipper · 06/08/2021 12:09

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet is it because mumsnet will get some advertising funding pulled if you allow threads like that to stay up?

Genuine question.

I know advertising revenue is important but it’s scary that there will be nowhere left to discuss these issues if certain groups get their way.

This is a site for mums and women to discuss pressing matters of the day. And this is one of them

OP posts:
CharlieParley · 06/08/2021 12:11

I've just checked. Open only to business and funded or career researchers.

AlfonsoTheMango · 06/08/2021 12:13

I'm sorry the thread was deleted - there was a very interesting discussion taking place and it was informative for posters who are new to the topic.

ExConstance · 06/08/2021 12:13

I thought it was a very interesting thread I've often pondered the point myself and having read some of the posts I understood why some people don't opt for surgery.

Chickenyhead · 06/08/2021 12:14

@Thelnebriati

I've had several deleted that I have absolutely no idea why. I haven't received messages about them so I haven't learnt what I need to learn. How to avoid the line.

Nobody here wants to cross the line. Well, until we lose our heads in frustration. I just wish the line was clearer.

ChocolateCoffeePot1 · 06/08/2021 12:15

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet If many or most posts were ok, then there were no grounds for the thread to be removed. If 3/4 of the posts were bad, then sure. Why couldn't you have just shut the thread to comments? You have that option, so why isn't that option taken more often? And is there an avenue to complain about the general direction of moderating on this site? Are we allowed to put in a complaint? Because clearly many people on this site are upset at the moderating and want something done. Are we at least able to complain, without being at risk of being banned?

grapewine · 06/08/2021 12:16

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet is it because mumsnet will get some advertising funding pulled if you allow threads like that to stay up?

I'd like to know the answer to this as well.

JanetPondersley · 06/08/2021 12:16

I had been writing a long response to that - which I had hoped would give some insight. Oh well.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe · 06/08/2021 12:16

I'm also showing my support for the OP and for every gender critical woman here. What is it going to take before women are prioritised in their own allocated spaces?

I also agree with Whatsnewpussyhat about the rush to surgery and permanent change for young people whilst the adults stating that they are trans, do not have or even seek, surgery. What's that all about?

This board has done so much to allow women to have a voice - any sort of voice - MNHQ, could you not stand firm on that point, ie. allowing women to discuss this very real and pressing issue, without fear of being deleted (guidelines permitting). If there are posts breaching this on a thread then delete those posts - but let the threads stand, please!

whatwasIgoingtosay · 06/08/2021 12:17

I see lots of individual posts deleted on MN on threads about a whole variety of issues not to do with sex/penis/trans topics. So why couldn't the inappropriate ones on the penis thread just be deleted? I was enjoying the deleted thread and hope that at least this one can stay. We need a space to discuss these things. I've learned so much from MN threads. We must stand up to the bullies who threaten advertisers.

Chickenyhead · 06/08/2021 12:18

Or let us know exactly what breached the rules, because I for one am confused

NotBadConsidering · 06/08/2021 12:19

So you can’t generalise, but you can’t be specific about people either, or have threads about specific people. Got it Hmm.