Bridging the generation gap

[mollythemeerkat]

G2 has an article this morning quoting conversations between "boomers" and "Gen Z": Just to quote the bit on trans:
Woman aged 60 comments: I have been an ardent feminist since my late teens and am having real trouble coping with transgender issues. It seems to me zoomers are very hard on people who see shades of grey. Im disappointed by reactions to JK Rowling and Martina Navratilova. Replies: "Being trans is such an important part of someones identity so to say, "I dont understand it" can be really horrible for someone, who as this person sees it, is existing in the wrong body. Questioning somebodys whole identity and suggesting theyre not a real woman or a real man - I think thats really horrible, to suggest that you can determine how someone else identifies".
And another young person: "Trans people are some of the most oppressed people, so I think anyone adding to that, I find it really intolerable. But I think we need to be patient, because if we`re going to make any progress you cant call people who disagree with you stupid".
These youngsters are not making their point aggressively and are probably coming from a good place, but its clear where they are in their thinking.
How on earth do we bridge the gap? Any ideas?

Wait until they grow up and have life experience and/or children.

I was always pretty feminist but my eyes really widened when I became a mother (although it may just be cos I hit my mid-30s and had had enough of the BS).

I'm sure it can't be pleasant feeling like you've been born in the wrong body. That doesn't mean you get to try on bras in a curtained cubicle next to me, when I'm getting advice on the best bra for one boob after my mastectomy. That doesn't mean you get to use women's changing rooms at the gym/pool in front of my 12yo DD. That doesn't mean you get to share the women's ward of a hospital, especially if you're a sex offender* That doesn't mean you get to represent my country in the women's team at the Olympics, therefore shoving a woman off the bench.

It's more than trans' 'feelings', what they want to wear, who they want to fuck, what pronouns they want to use. It's the mysogynistic breaking of our boundaries.

• And we know which ones they are cos they wear bells around their necks.

Keep talking.
Be patient.
Stick to our guns.

you cant call people who disagree with you stupid - even if that is what you think, amirite?

Posted too soon! By 'stuck to our guns' I mean resist any temptation to curry favour by changing the message - it never works anyway.

Agree Floisme. They are not putting forward a case apart from how very terrible it is to deny what someone feels about themselves. To most people, there are more terrible things. We have better arguments. Keep making them.

Like the majority on here it saddens me to see so many young people, especially young women, being taught to prioritise men's feelings over women's and girls' safety. I think it's very difficult to get the truth across to younger people when they are in the 'We know everything, despite having virtually no life experience' phase. I really fear for my (planned, but as yet unborn) grandchildren's future if this horribly misogynist time in human history continues unabated or even, God help us, worsens 🥺

They're young, still children. They're like Frodo at the start of Lord of the Rings, living a gentle, cosseted life with little experience or understanding of the rocky, often dangerous terrain of the adult world and the ways it will impact on and change them.

I wonder what has given them the idea that trans people are one of the most oppressed people. Possibly the constant repeating of this phrase has helped?
Disabled people are massively discriminated against but I rarely hear this said (I am not disabled myself)

I agree, so much of this is being ardently pushed by younger well-meaning people who just have no life experience, and to them this is the most heinous of crimes - being mean to an 'oppressed minority'.

I'm not sure how to get them to see reality without sounding patronising, as I remember being a teenager and if my parents disagreed with something I almost wanted to dig in my heels just to piss them off.

There is also the fact that they now have social media as a platform, and it makes them feel powerful, that they have a voice. You can genuinely feel that some of them think they are the ones going to change the world, using only their twitter account . And having that feeling of fighting an enemy (women who disagree) galvanises them. They belong to something important, they feel powerful.

So far, so normal, but the difference this time is that the the 'grown ups in the room' i.e. governments, media, medical establishment have all gotten on board with this (mostly due to lobby groups with their own agenda).

I do think in 10-15 years many of these young people they will look back and cringe a bit at what they peddled,(a bit like I look back at some of the stupid shit I said as a teenager), but in the mean time we just need to stay calm, stay focused and not give up. There is too much at stake.

Maybe we need to just focus on lobbying MPs, and leave twitter to devour itself. Those in government well know that older people are more likely to vote and will be more easily swayed by that. Although right now most of them are a disaster.

I'm not Gen Z but am bang in the middle of the millennial generation. I'm 33. I mean I do think that the world in the early 00s when I was a teenager was more sane!

I'm a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist. All of my older friends in their 40s/50s hold the same opinions as me.

I daren't speak to my younger friends in their 20s about this stuff.

So far, so normal, but the difference this time is that the the 'grown ups in the room' i.e. governments, media, medical establishment have all gotten on board with this (mostly due to lobby groups with their own agenda).

This is the problem isn't it- governments and large institutions are very on board with it, it legitimises it all.

@Lifeinthelastlane

I wonder what has given them the idea that trans people are one of the most oppressed people. Possibly the constant repeating of this phrase has helped? Disabled people are massively discriminated against but I rarely hear this said (I am not disabled myself)

I think that some dubious statistics have been peddled out, from Brazil where there are many trans sex workers who have been murdered (which is very sad) however not all of them have been killed because they were trans, some were killed by partners/ ex partners.

Of course there are also many female sex workers who have also been murdered, and in general they have one of the highest rates of femicide in the world. This doesn't seem to register.

So I dunno, it's good propaganda really.

I went to a very right on university in my 40's. A great many students were like these commenters - desperate to be kind but not understanding the arguments.

The ones who became my friends were the ones who thought it was all nonsense.

Trans people are some of the most oppressed people, so I think anyone adding to that, I find it really intolerable.

This simply demonstrates how gullible a lot of people are. Repeat the mantra "trans people are oppressed/murdered at an exceptionally high rate/more likely to kill themselves" over and over again and some people will believe it. We know from experience that a large proportion of people don't check facts for themselves. I saw or heard something the other day about older people being susceptible to myths about vaccinations they come across on the internet, and they quoted young people saying that older people are less sophisticated about spotting lies on social media. It's bollocks. Young people are just as bad, and probably worse.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

So far, so normal, but the difference this time is that the the 'grown ups in the room' i.e. governments, media, medical establishment have all gotten on board with this (mostly due to lobby groups with their own agenda).

This is the problem isn't it- governments and large institutions are very on board with it, it legitimises it all.

Yes, exactly. There must have been some serious money changing hands to push this through, against all logic, without public consultation. When you think about how social issues become changes in the law, it usually takes years of grassroots campaigning, with very public discourse.

Self ID was totally different, it was introduced legally in many countries before the public even realised it. Unfortunately, much of the groundwork has already been done behind closed doors. Very sinister.

In years to come, when the next trend comes along and these young people have forgotten what they spouted on twitter, these laws could still be in place.

I know in my heart that this trend won't last, and sanity will prevail eventually - but what kind of damage will be done in the mean time?

I have found that they are unwilling to consider that there may be a different point of view.

I liken them to anti-vaxers, flat earthers and conspiracy theorists. They are so set on their science interpretation, that there is no space for reality.

The worrying thing is that this particular group of extremists has so much control over the powers that be. However, I suspect a significant proportion of a certain aged man, would prefer to see women back in their place.

I am not so optimistic for this to go in my lifetime unfortunately.

@Lifeinthelastlane

I wonder what has given them the idea that trans people are one of the most oppressed people. Possibly the constant repeating of this phrase has helped? Disabled people are massively discriminated against but I rarely hear this said (I am not disabled myself)

The most oppressed people, globally and historically, are women and girls, and it's not something we can 'identify out' of. I don't understand how so many young women and girls have been taught to think otherwise, or to think that the answer to male violence towards effeminate-presenting males is not to challenge male behaviour, but to open up what were safe spaces and refuges for women to anyone, or for 'non-conforming' youngsters to alter their bodies to conform to deeply conservative expectations rather than challenge sexist stereotypes.

My concern isn't so much for this generation as for the one coming after, by which time statistics and media reports about crime, male violence, women's sport etc might be so mangled that there will be little or no useful evidence left.
And yes I know it's already happening but at least, to give a topical example, it was widely reported that Hubbard is transgender, but by the next Olympics it might not be.

@Chickenyhead "However, I suspect a significant proportion of a certain aged man, would prefer to see women back in their place." Yes. To an extent the shift to white-collar and robot work levelled the playing field in employment for a while, and males lost their physical power USP. Men were working side by side with women in offices as equals, and the groping and sexist remarks to belittle women is no longer tolerated. Taking away single sex toilets in offices and other workplaces, universities, etc., making women have to share with men who even leave the doors open, feels like a male pushback that they can do under the guise of progressive 'inclusivity'.

So far, so normal, but the difference this time is that the the 'grown ups in the room' i.e. governments, media, medical establishment have all gotten on board with this (mostly due to lobby groups with their own agenda) - this is the scarey part for me too and despite all this being deeply rooted in the establishment and positioning itself where theres money to be made, young people seem to have been persuaded that its radical and rebellious, which is of course very seductive. Sad that the good impulses, like wanting to challenge on the climate emergency, loses some of its energy to the gender ideology movement. And also sad that it rides on the back of the ideallism of the young.

It's easier to prioritise feelings over facts when younger. I'm more baffled by the older people who should know better!

@mollythemeerkat

So far, so normal, but the difference this time is that the the 'grown ups in the room' i.e. governments, media, medical establishment have all gotten on board with this (mostly due to lobby groups with their own agenda) - this is the scarey part for me too and despite all this being deeply rooted in the establishment and positioning itself where theres money to be made, young people seem to have been persuaded that its radical and rebellious, which is of course very seductive. Sad that the good impulses, like wanting to challenge on the climate emergency, loses some of its energy to the gender ideology movement. And also sad that it rides on the back of the ideallism of the young.

It's very useful for certain sectors of the establishment to have the energy of youth focussed inwards, on themselves and their bodies as individuals, and with a 'fix' you can lucratively sell them, rather than have that energy being directed towards class / social / sex / geographical inequality, anti-capitalism, environmentalism, anti-globalisation or other issues that might genuinely challenge the status quo.

This is the problem isn't it- governments and large institutions are very on board with it, it legitimises it all.

What other oppressed groups can you think of that are constantly promoted and centered by governments and large institutions? Isn't the definition of oppression that the opposite happens to you?

I think I agree with that analysis Ivy - it fits very neatly into the capitalist narrative doesnt it.

There are a few problems that these young people have.

One is they don't have a clear grasp of the biology. Too many people who seem authoritative, like the medical establishment, seem to be onboard. These are the same young people who are hearing that anyone with hesitations about new drugs or vaccinations are "anti-science". They have an implicit trust in certain kinds of authority.

They also have very little in the way of good critical thinking skills. They have been told, however, that they do. What is taught in schools is largely dogma - they are given just the right information to make sure they come to the right conclusions, with an emphasis on being critical of certain things: anything that can be considered colonialism, "conservative" as they've been taught to define it, anything done by Europeans, etc. They have a flat and unsophisticated understanding of power structures.

They are afraid of open argument and would consider something like a serious discussion of the legitimacy of historic slavery to be deeply offensive. They do not know how to construct an argument to support their position.

They do not understand that rights are not only NOT the only way to think about things, they aren't straightforward. That there are often conflicts and needs to balance varying rights in the law or individual circumstances. They aren't taught this.

They believe their sense of self, while on the one hand it is totally personally defined and subjective, requires affirmation from all around. Self-actualisation happens through choices about identity and consumer activity.

They have almost no understanding of historical changes in thought or real understanding of how different cultures think or value things differently. They often think such understanding is inherently "problematic."

Most don't read, or only modern books if they do.

As far as I an see, we have a few generations educated with only the purpose of becoming boosters for certain social justice causes, and so they have to be taken, step by step, and very gently, through the concrete effects of these things they support. Men in women's prisons, for example. Even that is too difficult for some.