Bridging the generation gap

[mollythemeerkat]

G2 has an article this morning quoting conversations between "boomers" and "Gen Z": Just to quote the bit on trans:
Woman aged 60 comments: I have been an ardent feminist since my late teens and am having real trouble coping with transgender issues. It seems to me zoomers are very hard on people who see shades of grey. Im disappointed by reactions to JK Rowling and Martina Navratilova. Replies: "Being trans is such an important part of someones identity so to say, "I dont understand it" can be really horrible for someone, who as this person sees it, is existing in the wrong body. Questioning somebodys whole identity and suggesting theyre not a real woman or a real man - I think thats really horrible, to suggest that you can determine how someone else identifies".
And another young person: "Trans people are some of the most oppressed people, so I think anyone adding to that, I find it really intolerable. But I think we need to be patient, because if we`re going to make any progress you cant call people who disagree with you stupid".
These youngsters are not making their point aggressively and are probably coming from a good place, but its clear where they are in their thinking.
How on earth do we bridge the gap? Any ideas?

I usually start with something like "Why do people have to change their bodies to like things that stereotypically are more popular with the opposite sex, isn't that sexist?" as an opener. Lots of them misrepresent our position and seem to think we support stereotypical sex roles and it comes as a surprise that we're not saying that at all.

I think a lot of younger people (not all) don't really see misogyny - they think most of the battle for women's equality is already won in the west. I was like this myself until my early twenties, didn't realise how much sexism I had experienced myself and then I really started to see it, experienced it at work, etc etc.

I think a lot of these well meaning young people are bought into a narrative where women are empowered and have largely become a privileged group who should be budging up rather than an oppressed group who are still fighting for their rights.

I like the point about nuance. That is a big problem. We, I think, all understand the emergence of 'no debate', 'silence is violence', allyship, privilege, into our politics and the reasons for oppressed groups being tired of the lack of real progress. But it has sped up institutional change without checks and balances. And there is nuance we need to address. Not many people accept Dolzeals identifying as black. I think George Orwell needs to go back on the reading list. And Twitter is having a hugely disproportionate effect on our society and we need to tackle that.

I watched 'Once upon a time in hollywood' the other day and it got me thinking about the cults back in the day.

Then I watched Adam Curtis' 'Cant get you out of my head'.

Essentially I dont want to call them stupid, but I think we cant underestimate how stupid a general populace can be. Particularly when they are in a cliche, and the internet is just another realm in which this can happen.

Theres something intrinsically wrong with the human mind and with modern day living. People crave collectivism, validation, acceptance from peers. Its not rational - this is an instinctive part of the brain making decisions here.

Anyway I have no idea where I am going with this because I only started thinking about it from this angle recently. But I think it shares a greater relationship with the cults of Charles Manson than we realise. And no I am not saying they are a cult. I mean the brain processes to get to this stage of cognitive dissonance and irrational thinking are working the same way - (peer praise, fighting for the greater good, wanting to make a new world etc.).

And how to bridge the gap?

Yeah I think its impossible. We can try to save them from themselves but ultimately I think this will be a futile battle. Only they can save themselves from themselves.

I think they will succeed in turning the world into a sexless gendered world and then they will come back to reality and point to the other side of the room going 'well I didn't mean THAT'. The next generation will battle to return us to reality.

@SmokedDuck 'Most don't read, or only modern books if they do.' I think many in this generation are not acquiring the ability to think linearly and historically. The internet delivers in soundbites, tweets and gifs, millions of little 'human centipede' islands of self-reinforced beliefs. Even sitting through a TV episode or movie and concentrating just on that story arc is too much for some. What was multigenerational, conversational family time, mealtime, tv, days out, journeys, holidays, is now spent staring into phones.

[quote IvyTwines2]@SmokedDuck 'Most don't read, or only modern books if they do.' I think many in this generation are not acquiring the ability to think linearly and historically. The internet delivers in soundbites, tweets and gifs, millions of little 'human centipede' islands of self-reinforced beliefs. Even sitting through a TV episode or movie and concentrating just on that story arc is too much for some. What was multigenerational, conversational family time, mealtime, tv, days out, journeys, holidays, is now spent staring into phones.[/quote]
Yes, absolutly.

I've worked for a number of years in literacy, helping students who are at risk of falling behind.

One of the notable changes has been the increasing inability of young students to reproduce a narrative story, much less come up with a story of their own which isn't just a cartoon plot. The children often don't do much themselves apart from interact with media, and even what they learn in school seems to centre around a yearly succession of social justice observances. There isn't anything wrong with social justice observances, necessarily, but the children don't seem to have any larger context for them.

Older students similar don't learn to construct an argument, but instead make lists based around pseudo-marxist underpinnings - it's all about who is or was oppressed, and inverting, rather than exploding the basis of, such power structures. The idea that power is more complicated, or that there might be other considerations or forces at play, isn't even in the picture.

Something has gone very wrong in education.

IvyTwines2
It's very useful for certain sectors of the establishment to have the energy of youth focussed inwards, on themselves and their bodies as individuals, and with a 'fix' you can lucratively sell them, rather than have that energy being directed towards class / social / sex / geographical inequality, anti-capitalism, environmentalism, anti-globalisation or other issues that might genuinely challenge the status quo.

I definitely think there is some of this going on, keep people distracted by petty squabbling over identities and who is the most oppressed among us, so we don't look at the real power players like tech companies and billionaires etc.

The real divider in our society is poverty, it affects so many outcomes for children - but there's no rainbow flag for that!

It's also useful for the government to have us distracted by this, women having to fight again for basic rights and spaces so we don't look at what else is going on.

I read recently (probably on a thread in FWR) there was a discussion on gender pay gap and getting more women into CEO positions, and someone in government was asked whether having more TW in CEO positions would fulfil this criteria and they said yes!

So this feeds a government need to be seen to be progressing on these diversity issues, ticking the box, without doing the hard work required for women to achieve these positions. That would take better investment in childcare and paternity leave etc. which would cost time and money.

Recently I have been thinking again about the belief that we “only use 10% of out brains.”

It’s not true but as an idea it has, somehow, become widely accepted. It becomes a “fact everyone knows.”

I believed it. Everyone was saying it. Then in my (probably) 30s I read a Bad Science column by Ben Goldacre which ranted about this myth. He wrote something about how no doctor ever says “luckily the patient was only damaged in the 90% of the brain we don’t use” and it made sense. It was bollocks.

It’s not the only myth that people believe. It’s accepting stuff on face value because you either can’t be arsed to check or you have no way of checking.

It reminds me so much of unsupported arguments being accepted, made worse by the internet being so full of misinformation.

How many young people go off and research who are the most oppressed? How much work do you have to do, sifting through stats on racism, prejudice against the disabled, transphobia to compare? People have always liked easy statements. If people don’t argue with the 10% of the brain myth - which surely offends no one except those who feel offended by their own gullibility- then how many want to say to a transperson making an emotional plea for support “hang on! Citation needed! I’m off to check the stats on that!” And where would they find the reliable stats to tell them?

TLDR - people smile and nod and believe things they’re told because it’s easier than thinking.

but the difference this time is that the the 'grown ups in the room' i.e. governments, media, medical establishment have all gotten on board with this (mostly due to lobby groups with their own agenda).
Yup.
I do get exasperated with young people sometimes but they're not the ones responsible for this shitshow. It's the grownups who have let them down badly.

What gap? Can you be more specific on how this is a generation gap versus just different view points? I don’t for a second think most baby boomers would agree with the women aged 60 comment, or that most Gen Z would agree with the young persons comment.

In the OP neither position seems to be in disagreement with the other as well? What does rage against JK Rowlings comments have to do with whether or not you think trans people are “the most oppressed” or not?

How many young people go off and research who are the most oppressed?

What does that really even mean, is the other part of that question. Even if we only want to talk about power, which would be foolish, power doesn't work in some sort of linear vertical arrangement.

@SmokedDuck

How many young people go off and research who are the most oppressed?

What does that really even mean, is the other part of that question. Even if we only want to talk about power, which would be foolish, power doesn't work in some sort of linear vertical arrangement.

I agree. To even start to unpick “who are the most oppressed?” You have to look at where (what region in what country) are we talking about? And you’d need to define “are” as in is that now this week, this year, this decade, this century? And then in what way...are we just going to look at raw oppression and ignore intersectionality?

Finally, how do you even define oppression and rank degrees of oppression? Example, Compare country where women have equality by law, but not in fact to country where women don’t have equality by law or in fact can we say that piece of paper is a difference if women’s lives are lived the same?

PlanDeRaccordement - to be fair the article was also described as an "advice swap" but actually I think a great many older feminists would agree with the statement made by the woman and many youngsters would agree with the two following comments. That doesnt mean of course that ALL older feminists and ALL young people have a uniform view about anything. However there does seem to be something of a generation gap in how many view some of the information about gender ideology and it would be useful to have some ways to meet on common ground and find some ways of moving forward.

What are zoomers?

And they have chosen people who will show what they want to show.

I don't think there's s generation gap as much as made out.

Loads of adult women in positions of power are TWAW no debate.

Loads of young people think it's a load of bollocks.

Eg if I ask my neighbour's 19 yo who works in a trade, or my friend who is 20 and a blokey bloke who's a bit dodgy...

No of course they won't be even slightly on board.

@Floisme

but the difference this time is that the the 'grown ups in the room' i.e. governments, media, medical establishment have all gotten on board with this (mostly due to lobby groups with their own agenda). Yup. I do get exasperated with young people sometimes but they're not the ones responsible for this shitshow. It's the grownups who have let them down badly.

Exactly, young people rebelling against established ideas is nothing new. But this time, so many 'respectable' organisations who should really know better have taken leave of their senses.

I do wonder if it is some weird guilt about how certain groups were treated in the past by the medical establishment, governments etc., so this is a sort of atonement for past sins, they aren't going to make those same mistakes, they are going to be fully supportive etc.

I just think this is the wrong thing to go full steam ahead with, and don't know how they can ignore the blatant distortion of reality, and disregard important safeguarding rules.

As far as a generation gap, where I've noticed it most is not so much in the "side" the person is on, as how they are able to think about it or talk about it. Older people are more likely to have a sense that there is supposed to be a rational, evidenced argument, even if they aren't really making one. Often they can be convinced if you show them outcomes they didn't know about or sometimes that what they assumed was the reasoning, isn't.

Whereas with younger people, a certain view of social justice isn't a position to be argued rationally, its the baseline assumption you employ when making an argument for anything else.

I wonder what has given them the idea that trans people are one of the most oppressed people.

From limited observation of teenagers I know, it goes 'Alex identifies as a boy but he's a 5 foot 2 soprano, and Emily identifies as a girl but she's 6 foot 4 with stubble. It must be so hard for them when everyone can immediately tell their sex that we must be extra extra super-nice to them so they can't tell that we can tell.'

Siiiigh.

Something wrong with our bloody higher education these days.

Whatever happened to critical enquiry and the testing of hypotheses, Occam's Razor and Popper's Falsifiability Premise?

@Jaysmith71

Something wrong with our bloody higher education these days.

Whatever happened to critical enquiry and the testing of hypotheses, Occam's Razor and Popper's Falsifiability Premise?

Erm. The last two. You what now?

Plenty of young people don't go on to higher education.

And of those that do, stacks study subjects that are not about... Those last 2 things!

This surely is about those who are studying certain things at certain universities.

S massive minority in other words.

Occam's razor is basically 'cut the crap, and what's the simplest answer likely to be here?'

Trouble is, a lot of (mostly younger) people think it's simpler to assume that a man who says he's a woman is a woman, rather than a man who thinks he is.

I was trying to point out that the young people at uni often won't be studying subjects that explicitly include those things.

And in my discipline that approach would be pretty unhelpful now I come to think of it!!!

I think it is a cross generation thing. I am surprised at the number of people my age (40's and up) who are very much TWAW. This usually comes from direct experience with their children or the "lovely friends" of their DC. The are generally university educated and 10+ years ago I would have been having discussions about (say) breastfeeding and formula feeding and why a particular study was not worthwhile and the flaws in the studies etc, they would be vocal about the pink Vs blue, they would be open to discussion even if they thought you were wrong. Now it is all TWAW, transphobia, identifying as cis, and #nodebate to cutting out anyone who slightly disagrees.

It is a very strange thing, so I am not sure this will get better as they age.

Also just thought

In my DD friendship group maybe 10 girls (girls school) they all have s trans ID of some type.

DD and I avoid the subject. She knows the importance of sex. She also is v black and white as young teens often are and her friends are her friends.

Happy to try to remember new names, use they. None have come out as boys at this point.

So if you have kids of that sort of age. It's way easier to go along with it and deliberately not think on it too much TBH.

I really don't think there's a generation thing here.

When it comes to girls and young women I think the main things are (and I was guilty of this). But you know, no experience.

Not being interested at all in things like maternity, pregnancy, how we're treated by hcps, pay gap, caring etc.

When I was young it was very much about gendered expectations around what you were interested in, capable of. The constant stuff about how important to look 'nice' (pretty sexy beautiful) and how others would assume that was major life goal. Wearing all black etc. You'd look lovely in s pretty frock! Street harassment sexual violence and terrible things for women around the world.

My DD is 'alternative' as I was and for many this is the latest rebellious /grown ups don't understand. Etc.

This always gets pushed back Nono trans IDs are always deeply felt and authentic.

All ten of them? Come on!