Bridging the generation gap

[mollythemeerkat]

G2 has an article this morning quoting conversations between "boomers" and "Gen Z": Just to quote the bit on trans:
Woman aged 60 comments: I have been an ardent feminist since my late teens and am having real trouble coping with transgender issues. It seems to me zoomers are very hard on people who see shades of grey. Im disappointed by reactions to JK Rowling and Martina Navratilova. Replies: "Being trans is such an important part of someones identity so to say, "I dont understand it" can be really horrible for someone, who as this person sees it, is existing in the wrong body. Questioning somebodys whole identity and suggesting theyre not a real woman or a real man - I think thats really horrible, to suggest that you can determine how someone else identifies".
And another young person: "Trans people are some of the most oppressed people, so I think anyone adding to that, I find it really intolerable. But I think we need to be patient, because if we`re going to make any progress you cant call people who disagree with you stupid".
These youngsters are not making their point aggressively and are probably coming from a good place, but its clear where they are in their thinking.
How on earth do we bridge the gap? Any ideas?

I see this more as a Marxist movement, not capitalist.

@AffronttoBS

I see this more as a Marxist movement, not capitalist.

It's related to both, really.

Critical Theory is a kind of variation on Marxism. One that cuts out the heart of what Marx said, and puts it in a context it wasn't intended but the way it looks at power as the only way to define/understand history and relationships and sees history as in progress towards something is from Marx.

On the other hand, to slightly repurpose something Adolph Reed said, identity politics is the lapdog of neoliberalism, in that it allows the people at the top, economically, to claim the moral high-ground, and to divide the interests of the people lower down, while keeping the basic economic system intact. Radical capitalism works just as well if people of all races and sexualities and other identities are found in statistically equal numbers among the rich and poor alike. And even among identity groups the goal is often to invert or rearrange the power hierarchy, rather than destroy it.

Which side is being used and which are the fools I guess could be argued, personally I think the wannabe marxists are the fools, because what they want is self-contradictory and impossible, while the globalists are making out very well from it all. These days even the progressives have come to believe that the traditional concerns of the left, like protection of industry, are far-right plots. So danger averted for global capitalism.

These views seem so entrenched in the under 30s. Why? When did it start? Was it when the T was added to LGB, around 2007 (I think)? Did it come from school? PSHE curriculum?

Why do you think that eis?

Real life conversations? With s range of different people?

I just don't see it tbh.

My DD (18) who is very aware of issues around diversity etc because I've wanged on about it for years and also she has a very mixed friendship group doesn't see why you have to change "gender" to like things typically of the other sex and she rolls her eyes at the pronoun people's self-absorption because how is she supposed to remember, but when I tell her that's considered "transphobic" her common sense goes and she panics and backtracks. Peer pressure is powerful at any age, but particularly younger people, but it's not necessarily what they believe when you talk to them logically.

I agree NiceGerbil that all fits in with the idea that this is being fuelled somewhat by social contagion. Which teenage girls seem to be quite vulnerable to.

I'm not sure why you said it's not generational though; surely that just shows that it is this younger generations thing, i.e. their way of rebelling, of displaying their unease with their bodies and their place in society.

In my generation, the alternatives were punk/emo, and eating disorders, self harming like cutting was quite prevalent in my secondary school.

This is just a new way for that distress to manifest itself, or for them to try and understand it. Which is why it is so sad and disturbing that medical institutions and educational establishments are going full steam ahead with the idea that surgery and hormones are the obvious next step.

At that age, you are so convinced that your anguish, your distress is completely unique and nobody can understand it, certainly not your parents or teachers. So they turn to online influences to navigate this.

@mollythemeerkat

PlanDeRaccordement - to be fair the article was also described as an "advice swap" but actually I think a great many older feminists would agree with the statement made by the woman and many youngsters would agree with the two following comments. That doesnt mean of course that ALL older feminists and ALL young people have a uniform view about anything. However there does seem to be something of a generation gap in how many view some of the information about gender ideology and it would be useful to have some ways to meet on common ground and find some ways of moving forward.

Just because you think there is a gap, doesn’t mean there is. Where is the mass population wide survey of opinions by generation to back up what you personally think most of Generation Z or boomers think?

@EishetChayil

These views seem so entrenched in the under 30s. Why? When did it start? Was it when the T was added to LGB, around 2007 (I think)? Did it come from school? PSHE curriculum?

The T was only officially adopted by Stonewall in 2015 (with a hefty grant from the Arcus foundation), but probably being lobbied for a few years before that.

Maybe this is the new radical for a new age, gay and lesbian is almost passé these days, not cool enough for the young people. That's what their parent's generation were. They needed something else. Add to that, the idea that you can be whoever you want to be. If you don't fit in to your family, your local community, that is very enticing.

Plus they have more access to knowledge than ever before about sexual behaviour/ positions/ orientations from porn, but less real life experience than previous generations. So I guess it's like trying out different identities to see what fits. Without having to actually do anything physical, so it's all in the realm of how they see themselves.

I've heard it said several times, that among the younger generation, being straight is not cool socially. Too boring I guess. So you have a boy and girl dating, but they both identify as 'queer'.

These are the misfits of the younger generation. Plus they see how much positive feedback people who 'come out' as non binary or trans get, everyone from the media to schools to adults praise them for being brave and stunning. Who wouldn't want that?

This woman in her 60s doesn't particularly mind about transgender people in public toilets, hospital wards, changing rooms, etc. She does, however, particularly mind if basic standards of respectful courtesy are not maintained. She has witnessed the most appalling behaviour from other women towards women in such places and recalls her elderly mother being unwell in hospital in a bay containing a woman who effed and blinded along with all her family and who loudly talked in a very coarse way about intimate issues. Mother would have been perfectly happy had she been replaced by a respectful, quiet man, ttans or otherwise.

The issue to me seems to be that the public sector excuses, and has for years, unpalatable or undistinguished behaviour under the umbrella of political correctness and has got its knickers so in a twist about the difference between right and wrong and basic good sense that we now just have an utter mess.
When I had my first baby I asked for Mrs to be put before my name and was told that might offend unmarried mothers. It was a statement of fact.

That’s nice for you and your mum, Postmen, but a lot of women prefer (and expect) single sex facilities.

It’s not possible to make an informed choice when the official line is that males can be women and females can be men.

I don't want to share female spaces with transwomen, no matter how nice or polite they are. They are men who commit crimes at the same rate of other men, and for good safeguarding reasons have been excluded from female spaces. Not to mention reasons of privacy and dignity. As a hospital patient the presence of male visitors made me feel vulnerable.

I don't want to share hospital spaces with any patient, or member of staff for that matter, who behaves in a loud or vile manner. I don't particularly care what sex they are.

I think the solution is to give everyone a private room.

I've long been a Germaine Greer style feminism. However my feminism radically changed when I hit my thirties, did ivf, had two babies and got made redundant on maternity leave. I think life will teach these young people lessons. They will also become less naive about the anterior motives of some unpleasant men. I think the best strategy is to continue to articulate how it is our physical bodies which is the root of our oppression, not some indefinable sense of being a woman. It is child birth and child rearing which accounts for women not reaching senior management positions in the same number as men. It is why we have less money in our pension pots. I've been groped and harassed by men. I could not have identified out of those experiences. I was groped and harassed due to being a biological woman. Not because of some inner sense of womanhood. We need laws and policies which mitigate for the biological reality of being a woman. This is the message we need to get across.

I think TWAW is a class-based ideology rather than age-based. It's a luxury belief and an absurd one too. People like me wouldn't be able to subscribe to such a bizarre doctrine because we would look foolish and it would affect our prospects, therefore it functions as a display of status for those with more privilege.

Thats a good point seahorses - class doesnt always come into the discussion and I`m sure its relevant. A lot of this ideology comes out of universities. where (on the whole), more priviledged young people are likely to go. I am of the view that if you wandered onto any ordinary high street in England (not Brighton!), and asked 60 random people if TWAW and explained it properly (sports, prisons etc), most would tell you it was a load of nonsense.

Franca123
I think life will teach these young people lessons. They will also become less naive about the anterior motives of some unpleasant men.

I agree, but I don't want to have to wait 15 or 20 years for them to wake up and realise this. What kind of damage will be done in the meantime?

Just because you think there is a gap, doesn’t mean there is. Where is the mass population wide survey of opinions by generation to back up what you personally think most of Generation Z or boomers think?

Any polling on this I've ever seen has a strong age element, with younger people being much more likely to support whatever it is they perceive as trans rights in various areas.

But a few things said up-thread which seem to the point to me - one being about younger people panicking when it looks like their opinions might be some how wrong or "phobic" and also where this stuff is being taught in school.

Schools have for many years taught intolerance as the number one, maybe the only, sin. Accepting people and kindness are the primary virtues. Almost no direction given about what to do when there is some kind of real conflict - what to you do when acceptance of particular religion means accepting others with a point of view that is supposed to be intolerant in some way? Or when you are told that accepting gay men as equal means being ok with surrogacy? Or... well, lots of other possibilities, but there is no defence that the students have against these arguments.

It's why the easiest way to win the floor now is to accuse others or racism or anti-semitism or something else. They can't respond, they panic, and back off. Even denying it is seen as proof of bigotry.

I agree with you SmokedDuck, the young people I know are unable to hold a reasoned debate, without objecting or taking third party offence to everything that challenges their dogma.

Priorities become muddled and conflicts unresolved. There are entire subjects that I am not allowed to discuss with my eldest. We don't even agree to disagree, because she won't hear me out. It's exhausting.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

I'm not Gen Z but am bang in the middle of the millennial generation. I'm 33. I mean I do think that the world in the early 00s when I was a teenager was more sane!

I'm a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist. All of my older friends in their 40s/50s hold the same opinions as me.

I daren't speak to my younger friends in their 20s about this stuff.

My kids are early 30s too. One of my sons told me he is actually scared of his 20s friends now. Its OK for me to speak out , I can't lose work or be shunned by my 60s peers. But I have left Twitter , Reddit and Facebook in case I inadvertently hurt them. I'm afraid it's going to be hard on millennials until the fever dream ends - and maybe even afterwards.

@Abhannmor

That's interesting and I wanted to add to this that I'm a 'millennial' in my mid 30 and I see myself leaning towards being gender critical. My view is we must respect trans people, I appreciate how hard it must be to struggle with your biology and identify in this way and I would always use preferred pronouns with someone however their rights shouldn't come at the expense of women's hard won rights. We shouldn't blindly move towards things like self ID, using gender neutral language and a gender affirming approach for children who are questioning who they are. I have other friends my age who share my view and interestingly they are all mothers. However, I would say many of my other friends are unaware of/uninterested in the issue.

I have a couple of friends my age who are very much on the other side of the argument one is particularly difficult to talk to about it but then she is hopeless at debate anyway and just gets angry when someone disagrees with her and the other can have a balanced discussion. So what I'm saying (anecdotally) is that amongst millennials views on this issue are quite diverse. To give you an idea of the demographic I fall into, we are mostly educated to degree level and live in/have lived in big cities. I would add to this that we are mainly at the older end of the millennial bracket.

And the oldest millennials were born in 1981, making them 40.

@flangeface I don't know if you have children or not but I know for me, I don't just lean towards being GC, I'm incredibly GC and I suspect that having DC makes me like this even more so. I think I've always been leaning towards GC but there's nothing like having DC, IMO anyway, to give a dose of biological reality and not only this, it really opened my eyes to how awful sexism still is within society.

My view is that anyone who is a decent person is worthy of respect and that as per the protected characteristics, and nobody should face discrimination. I also recognise how hard it must be to be genuinely struggling with identity. I think people who are feeling like this deserve proper support, and I question if this emperor's new clothes ideology that society/the medical profession is currently swept up in is ultimately what is best for people who are struggling with identity. I found Helen Joyce's 'Trans' absolutely fascinating, and horrifying, in equal measure, to see the origins of where the medical profession currently is, the first experimental surgeries etc.

No marginalised groups needs should be put ahead of another marginalised group's needs- and this is what is happening with the erasure of women in language, in our safe spaces, in our sports. When you think about it, the protected characteristic is 'sex'- it's still not even explicit that WOMEN are the sex that have always been mistreated and discriminated against because of our biology. I don't know how it could be worded better but that's just another thought that's sprung to mind as I'm rambling away here...

It isn't just the effects on women- my DC are 8 and 6 and I'm really worried that they will get dragged in to this ideology. I have several friends whose children are not much older who are declaring themselves non-binary or wanting to use opposite sex pronouns- one friend's DC in particular is really struggling atm and I am so angry at what is being done to children and teenagers at the moment. I'm having conversations which my children's school about the jigsaw PSHE curriculum atm- a lesson aimed at 6 and 7 year olds ffs- that does nothing except reinforce stereotypes. And it only gets a whole lot worse in secondary. Why are none of these schools questioning this ideology, this constant mantra- where has common sense gone? They are now playing their part in indoctrinating this generation with such questionable ideology. That combined with current popular culture and social media, it is all toxic in my opinion. Was it earlier on this thread or another one where I posted the graph showing the massive increase in child referrals to the Tavistock ever since the rise of social media. I can't understand why everyone who should be safeguarding our children- the government, schools, health professionals, are not up in arms about this- it literally makes no sense- well to me all it suggests is that this is a trend massively driven by social media and is causing huge amounts of harm.

That was really rambling and inarticulate but hope it makes sense!