Female Namibian runners change events due to too high testosterone

[KevinBaconsJeans]

Just spotted this on my newsfeed and very confused. I've seen on another post that there is no maximum limit for women's natural testosterone. So does that mean that this BBC article is lying by omission about the sex of the runners to create a story that isn't true?

It talks about two Namibian runners who have had to switch to different events because they have high T...

www.bbc.com/sport/africa/58029941

Extract:
Her initial excitement at an Olympic qualification however was crushed when she was informed by World Athletics that she would not be able to compete in the 400m event at the Games due to high levels of testosterone.

"In the beginning I was very down, you can't come and tell me now I am not a woman. That is really frustrating and gets me on my nerves but there's nothing we can do about it at the moment," she told BBC Sport Africa...

"It is really unfair because you cannot expect everyone to be the same, everyone to have the same abilities, we are born with different abilities, we can't be the same it doesn't make sense."

Masilingi was only informed in July by World Athletics that her testosterone levels were beyond the allowed limit for female athletes wanting to run in distances from 400m to one mile, unless they medically lower their testosterone for a period of at least six months

Doubt it.

Yes @NiceGerbil there was something the other day (upthread, i think) where they actually said included males in the women's category is more important than fairness for the female competitors.

A disgusting position to take, but I do like it when they say the quiet bits loud

I'm extremely confused here.
Do I have this right? A man can be a weightlifter because he feels like a woman.
But a woman with high testosterone can't run.
Am I missing something?

@MrGHardy

Absolutely terrible how many journalists do not mention that these athletes are DSD. Instead they pretend they are just like any other women, except with high T levels. That that is the only thing going on. They completely omit the reason for these high T levels - they are males with DSD conditions.

German ARD did much better on this, they made a fairly good short documentary, mentioned these things and definitely said things that in US/UK would have earned them a huge shitstorm.

What's DSD?

@HoliHormonalTigerlilly DSD = Disorder of sexual development, often called intersex.

@HoliHormonalTigerlilly

I'm extremely confused here. Do I have this right? A man can be a weightlifter because he feels like a woman. But a woman with high testosterone can't run. Am I missing something?

No, you don’t have it right. Laurel Hubbard is a transgender woman, ie born male and now claims to be female. Reduced their testosterone to a level acceptable by IOC rules, but that level is still far higher than levels found naturally in females. A female, who has naturally high testosterone, would be able to compete. The Namibian runners are males with a DSD - disorder of sexual development. The particular disorder they have affected their secondary sexual characteristics so their genitals look like female genitals. Hence being raised as female. However, they have internal gonads which produce testosterone at the same rate as all males, they’ve been through male puberty with all the benefits that gives. If they were prepared to have their gonads removed, or take medication to keep their testosterone below a certain point, they would be able to run as women. This doesn’t actually make them actual women.

Ah ok 👍👍

I'm extremely confused here. Do I have this right? A man can be a weightlifter because he feels like a woman. But a woman with high testosterone can't run. Am I missing something?

Yes. Press coverage is rubbish.

They're in different events, so the rules aren't perfectly aligned, but they're broadly the same.

Males can compete in women's sports if they lower their testosterone. This is unfair, but it's the current rules.

Hubbard has lowered testosterone, and gets to compete.

Mboma, Semenya et al are males with DSDs (disorders of sexual development) - not "females with high testosterone" as frequently reported - and have refused to lower their testosterone. If they did lower their testosterone, they would be able to compete, like Hubbard.

However lowering testosterone is bad for males, and it would lower their performance. Not enough to be fair for women, but enough to hurt their chance of winning.

Whereas weightlifting is a far more male-favouring event, so Hubbard can easily compete at top level despite lowered testosterone (and being 43).

There is no rule against women - females - having high testosterone at all. These testosterone rules only apply to males trying to compete against females. It's a "compromise" attempt for "fairness".

@HoliHormonalTigerlilly

I'm extremely confused here. Do I have this right? A man can be a weightlifter because he feels like a woman. But a woman with high testosterone can't run. Am I missing something?

Yes you are missing that these runners have male chromosomes but were declared female at birth due to a genetic defect that meant their sexual organs were underdeveloped/missing.

However they have internal testes that produce testosterone and provide the advantages associated with male puberty.

The majority affected by this will appear as girls until puberty, but then take on some male characteristics. Although some are not aware that they have this condition until the blood tests to compete competitively.

I read an article that stated currently this impacts 7% of Olympic athletes competing in female competition.

@holihormonaltigerlilly. These are biologically male runner who were wrongly identified as female at birth, classified as intersex due to ambiguous sexual genitals but have XY chromosomes and male level circulating testosterone who have developed the physical characteristics that give them athletic advantages over females.

Cross post.. many times

@NecessaryScene

I'm extremely confused here. Do I have this right? A man can be a weightlifter because he feels like a woman. But a woman with high testosterone can't run. Am I missing something?

Yes. Press coverage is rubbish.

They're in different events, so the rules aren't perfectly aligned, but they're broadly the same.

Males can compete in women's sports if they lower their testosterone. This is unfair, but it's the current rules.

Hubbard has lowered testosterone, and gets to compete.

Mboma, Semenya et al are males with DSDs (disorders of sexual development) - not "females with high testosterone" as frequently reported - and have refused to lower their testosterone. If they did lower their testosterone, they would be able to compete, like Hubbard.

However lowering testosterone is bad for males, and it would lower their performance. Not enough to be fair for women, but enough to hurt their chance of winning.

Whereas weightlifting is a far more male-favouring event, so Hubbard can easily compete at top level despite lowered testosterone (and being 43).

There is no rule against women - females - having high testosterone at all. These testosterone rules only apply to males trying to compete against females. It's a "compromise" attempt for "fairness".

Thank you for explaining!

Are the rules about who is allowed to run the same for the relays? i.e., shorter distances OK, not longer? Or does that need separate research?

Whereas weightlifting is a far more male-favouring event, so Hubbard can easily compete at top level despite lowered testosterone (and being 43).

Oh, it is worth noting that the one place the rules differ is the testosterone level. Weightlifting is using the IOC 10nmol/l level, so Hubbard doesn't have to lower much. 10nmol/l is at the bottom end of the healthy male range. It's possible a lot of male athletes at the games have that level.

Mboma and Semenya would have to lower to 5nmol/l - athletics has set a lower level (after initially using 10). That's below healthy male level (but still way about female level).

The IOC have acknowledged the 10 nmol/l limit is "not fit for purpose", but have yet to revise their rules.

There is no rule against women - females - having high testosterone at all. These testosterone rules only apply to males trying to compete against females. It's a "compromise" attempt for "fairness".

It also only applies to those who have XY chromosomes and specific DSDs.
This is the part that doesn’t tend to be reported at all.

Some athletes are XY and have high levels of testosterone but have a specific DSD that means they are androgen insensitive so their bodies can’t respond to male hormones and their bodies don’t go through male puberty. These rules don’t apply to them.

The rules also wouldn’t apply to athletes with XX chromosomes, although if they couldn’t prove a medical condition, they might be accused of doping. Medical conditions that cause higher testosterone in females also don’t tend to improve athletic ability.

With both Hubbard and these athletes, the issue is that they have bodies that have benefitted from male puberty. In 2015 the IOC believed that male advantage could be mitigated by lowered testosterone levels, but increasingly evidence suggests that this is not the case.

It’s difficult to understand how the level of scientific understanding can improve if people can’t speak clearly.

@SCMocha: The restrictions relate to legal females with male range testosterone in the middle distances only, 400, 800 and 1,500m only. As interpreted by the quotation of Seb Coe, because there is not enough evidence in the shorter and longer distances (there is a DSD athlete in the 5,000 and 10,000 events as well)

However, as was stated on another thread. .. World Athletics has in fact done a longitudinal study comparing performance of biologically female and biologically male athletes, which we call the world records

thanks. So these athletes could be in the 100m relays then, although perhaps they don't (yet) have enough sprinting experience for that, if they're still slow off the starts, from having so recently switched events. Probably won't be long until the relays are taken over too, though.

@Apileofballyhoo

From the article I posted above.

‘World Athletics has in fact done a longitudinal study comparing performance of biologically female and biologically male athletes, which we call the world records’, continued the World Athletics spokesperson. ‘Over decades, these prove time and again that there is substantial difference between the best-performing male and female athletes (8-12% across different athletics disciplines, much more in other sports). The scientific consensus is that this is due to the substantial differences in size and strength of muscles, bones, the heart and the lungs (which drive strength and power) and in serum haemoglobin (which drives endurance) caused by the enormous sex difference in levels of circulating testosterone between females (46XX) and males (46XY), which emerge during puberty.’

The "longitudinal study comparing performance of biologically female and biologically male athletes, which we call the world records" made me laugh. It's actually unbelievable that anyone would pretend a male bodied person has no advantage over a female bodied person.

The mixed races that have featured in this Olympics must have been a huge revelation to World Athletics mustn’t they?

“Goodness me, look how much faster, stronger and quicker those male athletes are when you compare them directly up against those female athletes. What a surprise, who knew! Just as well none of the female runners has a DSD or we would have had to tie ourselves in metaphoric knots to show how “fair and kind ” we are being in women’s events.”

The mixed races that have featured in this Olympics must have been a huge revelation to World Athletics mustn’t they?

Watching the swimming was pretty exciting because of the uncertainty and different sex orders the teams selected - and it did bring to mind watching the East Germans and others in the women's races (the source of the injustice to Sharron Davies and her coach father).

"DSD = Disorder of sexual development"

Now politely modified to Differences of Sexual Development because some people thought 'disorder' was unkind.

Other neutral scientific terms like deviation and abnormal also being modified out of existence to be 'kind.'

@Jaysmith71

"DSD = Disorder of sexual development"

Now politely modified to Differences of Sexual Development because some people thought 'disorder' was unkind.

Other neutral scientific terms like deviation and abnormal also being modified out of existence to be 'kind.'

And "Differences" has already become too unkind for some people, so they brought in "Variations in Sexual Development," which will inevitably have to be replaced in turn.

What always strikes me is that all these waffling rules, especially where they suggest things like reoving testes! are pretty horrible when you think about them. The idea that an athelete would do that just to compete is awful to comntemplate, and they shouldn't have to be in a position of making medical decisions to change their bodies for reasons like that.

The answer isn't to open up female sports though, it's to make it clear that xy androgen sensitive DSDs must compete as males, right from the get-go. So that they are caught well before the Olympics, so they aren't recruited by coaches and teams with shitty morals, and so the athletes aren't pressured by teams, coaches, family, governments.

I like this article, especially the closing paras which talk about 20 other genetic variants that enhance altheticism but are allowed. That testosterone levels in women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are ignored just does nto make sense. What we will get to is white genetically perfect athletes only ( there already some groups who think black athletes have a physiological advantage due to their race genetics and should be banned ) .

"(there already some groups who think black athletes have a physiological advantage due to their race genetics and should be banned ) "

I don't see those groups arguing here on this thread about sex.

Can I ask a possibly naïve question?

Would it be unreasonable to describe these runners as biologically male people with a congenital abnormality / difference in their external genitalia (caused by a specific DSD), which caused them to be assigned female at birth?

Is that an incorrect use of the term "congenital abnormality" and/or in other ways offensive to those living with DSDs?