Daughter with gender dysphoria

[MrsRochester12]

Apologies if this is not the correct place for this thread but I’m lost and quite broken.

My DD15 who has high functioning ASD is convinced she is trans and is actually a boy. She has thought this for nearly 2 years. We ignored it for quite a while and to be honest hoped it’s was just a phase so we didn’t take it very seriously but recently she’s been getting very angry with us because we won’t use the boy’s name she has chosen etc. We are trying to use gender neutral language as a compromise but it’s difficult to always get it right. I’ve taken her to get her hair cut and she’s always worn trousers , hoodie etc. We’ve had huge rows recently because I can’t say she is a boy. I’ve tried to calmly explain my point of view and that whilst I accept that she doesn’t feel like a girl she can’t actually turn into a boy. I’ve also explained that I think a lot of it is due to her ASD but again I just get screamed at. Her therapist now wants to support her in talking to us which I am dreading. I don’t know why I’m writing this here except that I can’t stop crying.

Difficult because if my child said they felt trapped in the wrong body and wanted to be referred to as a boy, I wouldn’t hesitate to do so as it is important to them. Why does it bother you so much?

Would you really? Even though there are possibly other reasons for my child not feeling comfortable with their changing body - Autism for one. I fully
Support her being gender non conforming and dressing and presenting in a more ‘boyish’ way and wearing whatever makes her comfortable (although plenty of women have short hair and wear trousers) but I’m not about to sign her up for hormones and eventually being sterilised. If it was just words that would be one thing but to be honest I’m scared what comes next as she is very determined on fully transitioning

I feel for you OP - this has become a parent's worst nightmare. And you are right to hold off on the affirmation approach - social transitioning sets kids on a road that's hard to turn back from. Don't know where you live but there are therapists out there who take a more holistic 'watchful waiting' approach. Maybe have a look at the Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine (segm.org) or the Thoughtful Therapists, or Transgender Trend. They might have resources that will help. Also bayswatersupport.org.uk are specifically for parents. They have enormous expertise - and they really understand what you are going through.

@Scutterbug

Difficult because if my child said they felt trapped in the wrong body and wanted to be referred to as a boy, I wouldn’t hesitate to do so as it is important to them. Why does it bother you so much?

Even trans groups are not using the “trapped in the wrong body” description any more. It is incorrect and potentially dangerous to a child to think that such a thing is possible.

For any child, but particularly autistic ones, actual facts are very important. People cannot change sex. They can adopt the stereotypes of other sexes if they so wish, but that should be open to all children, not just those claiming to be a different sex.

If they feel that they want to be male and change their name, would it be so wrong for you to respect this? Do you need to agree with it? It's their reality after all.

I have some experience of this - I felt like you until it happened to my family member and then I just wanted to support them really.

I won't support puberty blockers but name and pronoun changes I have.

Dr Stephen Hawking was trapped in the wrong body. What can a 15 year old with a perfectly healthy, still growing body not do? This is the body you get.

Sorry op. We had a wonderful trans person in the family that grew out of it in their teens but this was before social media. It sounds like you’ve been brilliantly supportive. It’s your job as a parent to provide a more objective world view.

Would it be worth a sit down all Together with the therapist to set some ground rules? You are both entitled to be spoken to respectfully. You are both entitled to your own opinion. You are both entitled to talk through the pros and cons of treatment etc.

@Scutterbug. You may believe you know how you would react, and you may believe your imaginary reaction to be superior,you may believe your response is kinder or more child focussed. Good for you.
@MrsRochester12. I have been in precisely this situation. I tried so hard to listen and support my child. I cried so much. But I had a long dark night where I asked myself what would be more awful to live with, to stay true to my own belief , that people cannot change sex, and encouraging a child to believe that they can by changing their name and pronouns could allow a situation to develop with potentially very dangerous consequences,to stand firm that they could wear what they liked, present how they liked, but they were still the sex they were born. Or I could lie continually, celebrate the new name, get indignant alongside them when people misgendered but correctly sexed them,bought them binders even though they have asthma, fought for puberty blockers, and testosterone.paid for a double mastectomy, and then maybe had to face them when the said why did you let me destroy myself?
I knew that I could not follow that second path, even if I was denounced as a transphobic, if they were removed from my care, if our relationship was destroyed. So I didn’t. I just stopped engaging with any of it. If confronted, I was willing to explain my red lines, but it didn’t happen and 3 years on we have an 18 year old who knows what she is, and seems very pleased with herself. And she is now just beginning to unpack what was going on for her at that time.
I think you need to look after yourself very well. This stuff destroys people
I think you need to continue to love your child and give them lots of attention,. But, ever so gently, disengage from this, where possible.where it’s not possible , ask the hard questions. How would they feel if you stopped being their Mum, and became Dad2, where are they hoping to go with this? What is their sexuality?, have they had an orgasm, how do they produce that, what will happen if those organs are surgically altered? who will they love?
Sorry to be graphic, but I think ours was actually, and for very good reasons, in flight from adulthood, from menstruation, breasts, visibility and sexuality.
I also think you need to monitor their usage of the internet. And don’t allow them to be rude to you, insist that any discussion is respectful.

@IdblowJonSnow

If they feel that they want to be male and change their name, would it be so wrong for you to respect this? Do you need to agree with it? It's their reality after all.

I have some experience of this - I felt like you until it happened to my family member and then I just wanted to support them really.

I won't support puberty blockers but name and pronoun changes I have.

I have considered this but every time we make a compromise she wants to push it to the next stage.

I can’t say that I believe she is a boy because I don’t. I don’t believe anyone can actually change their biological sex. She is Autistic and vulnerable and to be honest I’m bloody scared that in a couple of years she will be able to do what she wants and I will have no power to slow things down.

[quote Zebracat]@Scutterbug. You may believe you know how you would react, and you may believe your imaginary reaction to be superior,you may believe your response is kinder or more child focussed. Good for you.
@MrsRochester12. I have been in precisely this situation. I tried so hard to listen and support my child. I cried so much. But I had a long dark night where I asked myself what would be more awful to live with, to stay true to my own belief , that people cannot change sex, and encouraging a child to believe that they can by changing their name and pronouns could allow a situation to develop with potentially very dangerous consequences,to stand firm that they could wear what they liked, present how they liked, but they were still the sex they were born. Or I could lie continually, celebrate the new name, get indignant alongside them when people misgendered but correctly sexed them,bought them binders even though they have asthma, fought for puberty blockers, and testosterone.paid for a double mastectomy, and then maybe had to face them when the said why did you let me destroy myself?
I knew that I could not follow that second path, even if I was denounced as a transphobic, if they were removed from my care, if our relationship was destroyed. So I didn’t. I just stopped engaging with any of it. If confronted, I was willing to explain my red lines, but it didn’t happen and 3 years on we have an 18 year old who knows what she is, and seems very pleased with herself. And she is now just beginning to unpack what was going on for her at that time.
I think you need to look after yourself very well. This stuff destroys people
I think you need to continue to love your child and give them lots of attention,. But, ever so gently, disengage from this, where possible.where it’s not possible , ask the hard questions. How would they feel if you stopped being their Mum, and became Dad2, where are they hoping to go with this? What is their sexuality?, have they had an orgasm, how do they produce that, what will happen if those organs are surgically altered? who will they love?
Sorry to be graphic, but I think ours was actually, and for very good reasons, in flight from adulthood, from menstruation, breasts, visibility and sexuality.
I also think you need to monitor their usage of the internet. And don’t allow them to be rude to you, insist that any discussion is respectful.[/quote]
Thank you so much for this. I have felt so guilty that I cannot support this and am scared that voicing my genuine beliefs with the therapist will cause concerns about our parenting with social services. I am trying to be supportive with how she presents as I love her and want her to be comfortable and puberty as an Autistic teenager must be awful anyway but I can’t support this. Any conversation ends up with her getting so angry and storming out of that house. Her friends also are all supporting it of course.

My brother (28) has ASD and thinks he is a woman. Whilst we all use her new name and pronouns, I think ASD has a lot to do with it, and I don't think this aspect of it has been researched enough yet. I hope scientific research will come.

I think when a child/ sibling has ASD the whole family are more protective than they would otherwise be.

I feel that my family has worked so hard to integrate her into society and try and be as "normal" and functioning in society as possible.

However, the trans issue has thrown a massive spanner in the works. So now I worry people will discriminate against her for being autistic/ different AND being trans.

But I don't want her to be depressed/ unhappy.

I’m sorry to hear you and your family are going through this. You will get lots of support here MrsRochester, and Olderbadger has given you the main groups that other parents have found helpful.
I have an DS with ASD, and I know that if he were a teenager now he would consider himself to be trans, in fact I am convinced that it would have been suggested to him as a route out of his difficulties. He is a total convert to queer theory, gender not sex, TWAW, TMAM etc, and definitely thinks of me as being a TERF. I am constantly astounded that someone with such a far ranging scientific knowledge believes in the fantasy of people being able to change sex. He has spent the last 10 years in higher education, which accounts for a lot!
I would suggest that you monitor online activity, many parents find that their ‘trans’ children spend a lot of time on sites that recommend hormones, binders, and try to drive a wedge between child and parents. Can you get some outside exercise, walking, other interests into your teens life, perhaps a regular hobby with you, and something with your partner, this gives some constructive time together when you are not having fraught discussions. I would also check what is being done at DDs school and her friendship groups.
Please be careful when choosing a therapist as many of them work by affirming their clients gender identity, as that is what their governing body has ruled appropriate.
💐

A really difficult situation to be in as a parent because both you and your daughter will have really strong emotional reactions that obviously differ. It sounds like a good idea for her therapist to help her talk to you, it sounds like she feels she needs to be heard and it might help you as well to understand how she feels.
There’s a long way from wanting to be referred to as male and going down the road of hormones. I don’t really understand when you say to her it’s due to her ASD, there is a higher incidence of gender issues amongst those with ASD but it’s still what makes her who she is, she can’t put something like that aside because it could be because she’s Autistic.
It may be that she’s being influenced, or that she is confused in some way, but you won’t know for sure without hearing her. Either way you are both going through a difficult time that could be better if you were together rather than clashing.
I have a son who is autistic and questioning his gender, he’s younger than your daughter but I do understand that it’s really difficult.

@IdblowJonSnow

If they feel that they want to be male and change their name, would it be so wrong for you to respect this? Do you need to agree with it? It's their reality after all.

I have some experience of this - I felt like you until it happened to my family member and then I just wanted to support them really.

I won't support puberty blockers but name and pronoun changes I have.

It is their reality An anorexic person’s “reality” is that they think are overweight. Do you put them on a very low calorie diet? A person with serious mental health issues thinks, for example, that, in their “reality”, their cat is the devil. Do you allow them to kill their cat?

Supporting someone’s “reality” is not always the best thing to do - for that person or for others around them.

Very sorry to hear of your situation MrsRochester12. Children with ASD seem particularly vulnerable to gender ideology. There has already been a number of good suggestions and advice. Definitely avoid therapists who will simply affirm your daughter's ideas without questioning why she feels that way.

You might find some useful info in this thread as well
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3744776-ROGD-Parent-Support

Also, look up Lily Lily Maynard on Twitter, as reading about her daughter might be helpful for you, and if you have any concerns about your DD’s school then Safe Schools Alliance will be able to help.

I feel for you OP. If my dd had done that I would have been heart broken. I have listened to a radio interview several months ago now with a male trans who also had autism who pushed and pushed his parents first with name change, then clothing choices, then pronoun change and once 19 had puberty blockers and eventually female hormones. His parents were unhappy but reluctantly went along with it. After 3 years of receiving female hormones this person then had a change of heart and said they were confused and did no longer know how they identified. The female hormones were stopped but the person had by this time grown breast. In the end away from school friends who egged on the person stopped taking the male hormone blockers and decided to revert to being the male he was born. He said it was only when the clinic spoke about was he happy as he was or did he want to remove penis and constructing a vagina did he realise he was unsure. A high.pervent of teens that go through wanting to be opposite sex whilst at school change their minds after leaving school/college. Holding back and slowing the process down seems to be a reasonable strategy given many change their minds. Teens with autism are very influenced by friends.

My close friend has had this problem recently, with their ADHD and ASD ds and it has made me so very sad.

Have a look at this. The point of view of an autistic woman who has desisted

extract
For most of the time I identified as transgender, I was not yet diagnosed with ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder). Looking back with the knowledge that my diagnosis has given me, it’s obvious that I was unwittingly dressing up my Autism in the more fashionable clothing of Gender Dysphoria. Gender Dysphoria is defined as “the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex.”; it is the clinical diagnosis received by transgender people.

Autism is a lifelong developmental disability which causes restrictive and repetitive thinking and difficulty with communication and social interaction. If you have an Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) you often develop very narrow obsessions that are difficult to see outside of. In the ASD community, these interests/fascinations/obsessions are called “special interests”.

(Continues)

Difficulty adjusting to change is another classic autistic trait. In my everyday life this mostly manifests as trivial eccentric things like still wearing the clothes I wore at 14 because I am so attached to them. However, whilst I was going through puberty, this aspect of ASD meant I really struggled with my changing body. It was made worse because I didn’t understandwhyI was struggling. I simply could not handle the way my body was changing during puberty and the speed at which it was changing. The changes didn't make sense to me. I didn't want to look at my body, take proper care of it, or, God forbid, show it to anyone else.

When you are female & autistic (diagnosed or not), you are aware from a young age that your brain seems to be wired differently to the girls around you. In the current social media climate of gender identity fixation, it was easy for me to misinterpret this as having a brain wired like a boy's. Autism makes you good at systematizing but bad at empathizing, which are traits we typically associate with men. Autistic women tend to lack the emotional depth that is expected from women, and this can result in struggling to socially bond with other women, instead feeling closer to men.

When I was 15, undiagnosed autistic, and surrounded by trans culture online, it was easy to conclude that Imusthave a male brain because I had typically male patterns of thinking. I also struggled with body image issues, and I felt totally at home in the insular trans community that I had found online. Factor into that my tomboyish childhood, the fact I grew up with entirely male friend groups, and that I had been getting mistaken for a boy throughout my life (even with hair down to my hips), and I had all the evidence I needed that I was a boy in a girl’s body. I came out as trans at 16 and stayed that way until I was 21.

Continues: 4w.pub/autism-puberty-gender-dysphoria-view-from-an-autistic-desisted-woman

I’ve also explained that I think a lot of it is due to her ASD but again I just get screamed at.

I have an ASD diagnosis, and unfortunately there are few things as guaranteed to get me to disengage with what you're saying as something like "you just think that because of your autism". Even if it's true. Fuck it, especially if it's true. You're almost certainly not going to get any kind of productive conversation through that approach.

Hi OP,

If no one else has suggested it, you might want to get in touch with the Bayswater support group. They're a group for parents in your position.

bayswatersupport.org.uk/

@Scutterbug

Difficult because if my child said they felt trapped in the wrong body and wanted to be referred to as a boy, I wouldn’t hesitate to do so as it is important to them. Why does it bother you so much?

Because it is going along with a lie?

A female can never be male. A male can never be female. It is cold, hard biology.

You can wear what you want, dress how you want and even take hormones that may help you to resemble someone of the opposite sex, but you can't actually change sex.

MrsRochester12

I would echo the Bayswater group, and the Thoughtful Therapists. Even just to get a list of questions to ask in finding a therapist that doesn’t just immediately go to affirming only treatment paths.

You are not alone. At all.

If they feel that they want to be male and change their name, would it be so wrong for you to respect this? Do you need to agree with it? It's their reality after all

People don't have their own reality. They may have a particular perception of themselves, but that is not reality. Three people may be convinced that they are the Queen, and that is their 'reality', but only one person is, in fact, the Queen.

Facts don't care about your feelings and all that.

Difficult because if my child said they felt trapped in the wrong body and wanted to be referred to as a boy, I wouldn’t hesitate to do so as it is important to them. Why does it bother you so much?

Because as a parent, OP has a far better knowledge of their child than anyone else.

Because as a parent, it is OP’s role to look further than immediate gratification of one request to see how this might play out in the future.

Because, as the most recent studies have shown, affirming only treatment is not the best approach for all young people with gender dysphoria. I am happy to link the most recent from Australia if you would like. NSW, at least, has done some in-depth case progression reviews. Something that GIDS here seem to not have been able to do properly.