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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mid-life new same sex attraction being fetishised

66 replies

lalalalalafeelingroovy · 27/07/2021 15:05

Total name change for this as I'm pretty nervous about posting it. Back during the first lockdown, being home and so often alone brought about a lot of introspection. I'm a divorced single parent and haven't had any romantic or sexual relationship/contact of any kind since my marriage ended close to a decade ago. I'm far from asexual but whenever any sort of opportunity or suggestion for dating/hooking up with a man has come up, I have backed right off it. When the pandemic started one of the things that hit me was that in a lot of ways the choice/opportunity to meet a guy was lost to me for the foreseeable. Which was a mix of tough, because at times I do feel frustrated by the complete lack of a sex life but also absolutely fine because I so feel such a very strong aversion to being in another relationship with a man.

I've always identified as 100% straight. When people trot out the 'everyone is a bit bisexual' trope I've always felt it's belittling to all straight and gay people, but especially women, as it's so often just aimed at straight women. However, throughout lockdown for a genuine string of reasons, I started to feel more and more attraction to women. It started as a massive shock, one that I rationalised as a reaction to long-term celibacy, something my brain dreamed up to distract me from the pandemic, a desire to feel more special, a reaction to a terrible marriage etc. But over time, I think I actually probably am attracted to women too and can identify various times in my teens and twenties where that attraction surfaced and I rejected it.

I've taken a lot of time thinking through this, I've read a lot about it, articles and fiction. I've watched a lot of lesbian/bisexual media, including some youtube channels. I learned that it's actually reasonably common for women my age to develop same sex attraction later in life. Sometimes those women identify as completely lesbian, sometimes bisexual. My biggest fear as I've developed these feelings is experimenting with a lesbian woman and hurting her if it turned out this is just some sort of mid-life crisis. So I'm thinking that it's good that the pandemic has given me time to think through everything as much as I can alone.

And while going over everything, I found there are quite a few online chat groups for women who are developing these feelings when older, often after marrying a man, to discuss this with each other. I joined some of these groups last year and initially they were great. It's been really interesting to see the similarities and differences in our experiences. It's interesting to read about those who are further into their journey are getting on with dating other women. Or telling other people in their lives.

But I've come up against an issue that's increasingly a problem for me. After the first few weeks/months in a group, you start to get used to the most regular users. And as I worked out who they were, I also realised that as many as 1/4 or more of the regulars were transwomen. I kind of instinctually wasn't happy about that but I really couldn't work out why I felt that way. But as time went on, it became really obvious to me that our experiences weren't the same. The transwomen on these groups all identify as late in life lesbians because it's later in life that they have started identifying as women. their attractions haven't changed. Whereas the women in the groups are processing either a complete change in who they are attracted to or an expansion of it.

A discussion about our past relationships with men and whether or not there was real attraction, real enjoyment of the sex, how we felt then, how we feel in retrospect, etc, has nothing in common with someone who was a straight man and now identifies as a gay woman. Leaving aside any suggestion of AGP, and assuming that a male bodied person, identifying as a woman and maintaining an attraction to women, is a genuine gender orientation. Surely if you joined a group of previously straight identifying women, talking through their emerging attraction to women, you'd quickly recognise that your experiences had nothing in common, say best wishes guys, and go set up your own group to discuss your own specific, very, very different experiences. There are plenty of broader LGBTQ+ groups to connect with the whole broader community and discuss the experiences you may have in common. You wouldn't just stay and keep inserting your own irrelevant experiences into a unique and unrelated discussion group. Instead these posters join right in and are often the among the most prolific posters, just constantly inserting their own experience into the discussion.

So it makes me really feel like ultimately this isn't coming from a place of a genuine need to process their feelings and connect with those in similar situations. It actually does make me feel fetishised. Like these are men just really enjoying getting to join in and steer these discussions women are trying to have about our sexuality. Often the whole discussion turns to kink/BDSM, which makes me feel extremely uncomfortable because this tends to be one of the topics that becomes most dominated by the transwomen posters. I've never been able to participate in those discussions because I just feel really, really weirded out by them. Even though I think they touch on some interesting points that I'd actually like to discuss.

In the end I left most of the groups because something that was helping me make sense of my feelings became something that I was increasingly very uncomfortable in. I know, realistically that it's the internet, any poster can be claiming to be a woman in my age group and could be a 90 year old man or 13 year old boy or anyone else. But this isn't even pretending. It straight up feels like a space for women to discuss very private and confusing parts of themselves, has been made into something the opposite of safe. I miss having the groups. I really wanted to have the space to work through everything. I wasn't in a hurry to take how I'm feeling further just yet but I think I want to eventually and I wanted to be able to do it with a support network. Yet I feel instead like overall, it just turned out to be a bit of a creepy experience.

OP posts:
Holothane · 27/07/2021 15:09

I’m straight but 55 now and am feeling that safe places for women are getting rarer and rarer. It’s getting everyone must have a label and if your straight, female your not important, so yes I can see were your coming from hugs.

YouthfulIndiscretion · 27/07/2021 15:10

You need a group for women who have become attracted to women late in life, having previously only been in relationships with men. You may need to set one up yourself.

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/07/2021 15:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Redapplewreath · 27/07/2021 15:36

This is an increasing problem for all women's groups.

There's a political insistence that everything must be inclusive and that there is no difference between the experience and needs of a natal female and a natal male if both use the word 'woman', so there is no reason not to be.

However this wholly ignores that a mixed sex group invariably becomes male centric and no longer provides the focus and meeting of needs of the female people it was first created for

This is because female centric needs, issues, voices and feelings are only interesting to male people if they are in some way male relevant. So female people can end up feeling made use of, and this is not an uncommon situation, there are rape crisis groups and infertility groups as well as lesbian groups that have shared experiences like this. Or women can end up no longer being able or even allowed to talk about the things and gain the support that meets their needs. They can't argue, so they're forced to comply or to leave the group.

Without tolerance that female people sometimes need protected female only spaces, females are forced out in favour of male people. Which is just basically sexist and the reason women's groups were created in the first place: because women's needs are not successfully and equally met in mixed sex groups. Women just end up the silent losers. Again. Plus ca change.

Not very inclusive really.

dyslek · 27/07/2021 15:42

Iv oftern wondered about this. I have never got anything out of sex with men. I have always thought I must be doing it wrong or that there is just something wrong with me.
I always wanted to ask if its the same for other women, do women get any sexual pleasure from sex with men? I know most women would say yes, but how? I dont feel a thing, except frustrated/irritated during penatrive sex. How do women enjoy sex with men? its a total mystery to me.

Eyesofdisarray · 27/07/2021 15:43

Move over again, women

dyslek · 27/07/2021 15:44

Yes, I also agree these trans women are taking the piss. Someone 'changing gender' is not a change in attraction at all, its not the same thing.

KohlaParasanda · 27/07/2021 16:01

I'm sorry you've had the experience of being pushed out of what should have been a safe place for you because of the inability of men to let women have anything of our own. I hope you saw the deleted post. I agree with the advice that was given in it.

Twinkletwinklelittlecar · 27/07/2021 16:02

@dyslek I have concluded that some women just have differences to their anatomy which make penetrative sex more/less pleasurable I.e. if the clitoral "legs" are closer to the vaginal wall or whatever so are stimulated, or if the G spot might be more sensitive.

lalalalalafeelingroovy · 27/07/2021 16:08

@KohlaParasanda

I'm sorry you've had the experience of being pushed out of what should have been a safe place for you because of the inability of men to let women have anything of our own. I hope you saw the deleted post. I agree with the advice that was given in it.
I did. I was actually really confused trying to work out if I was mistaken about what was deleted. I can't actually believe that suggesting a way that women can try to find a way to privately discuss a specific female experience of sexuality only with people having those specific experiences, is forbidden. (I know men can also have similar experiences in terms of attraction to other men starting later in life too. But they aren't dealing with the exact same issues either, especially in terms of internalised misogyny.)
OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 27/07/2021 16:10

@dyslek

Iv oftern wondered about this. I have never got anything out of sex with men. I have always thought I must be doing it wrong or that there is just something wrong with me. I always wanted to ask if its the same for other women, do women get any sexual pleasure from sex with men? I know most women would say yes, but how? I dont feel a thing, except frustrated/irritated during penatrive sex. How do women enjoy sex with men? its a total mystery to me.
Same for me.

It’s a real pity, OP, that you have found it necessary to remove yourself from something that was valuable to you. I’m doubly sad as now you’ve mentioned it, I might have felt such a group might have been helpful to me as I am in a similar situation, where I can’t imagine another relationship with a man, but occasionally find myself interested in butch women, but worry about experimentation. The last thing I would want in such a group is male people who can have no possible insight into my situation. The fact that they choose to insert themselves into a group where they don’t fit the group criteria feels selfish.

dyslek · 27/07/2021 16:20

[quote Twinkletwinklelittlecar]@dyslek I have concluded that some women just have differences to their anatomy which make penetrative sex more/less pleasurable I.e. if the clitoral "legs" are closer to the vaginal wall or whatever so are stimulated, or if the G spot might be more sensitive.[/quote]
Yes, I think this must be it.

lalalalalafeelingroovy · 27/07/2021 17:01

@AnyOldPrion I’m doubly sad as now you’ve mentioned it, I might have felt such a group might have been helpful to me as I am in a similar situation, where I can’t imagine another relationship with a man, but occasionally find myself interested in butch women, but worry about experimentation.

It is sad. This type of feeling is something that I think of as common on a global scale but less so on a local one. So the internet was such a perfect tool. You aren't necessarily going to meet women you can discuss this with in real life but can fairly easily online. But now it feels colonised and less secure.

I left the last of the groups earlier this week as I really felt like I didn't want to be kicked out. That would have felt like a real blow for some reason. A lot of the women really seem to defer to the transwomen too. To be kind, I guess. Or maybe out of a feeling of deference to these people who are already 'out' unlike most of these women who are largely just working through new feelings. But it does allow what are often very private conversations to be open to people that just have no experience of what is being talked about.

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 27/07/2021 17:35

A lot of the women really seem to defer to the transwomen too.

I would have appeared to as well, back in the day. I was brought up in a family where I saw my parents being friendly and welcoming to people who were “outsiders” e.g. from different parts of the world or those who were social outcasts. So I wouldn’t have just “been kind” and ignored any differences, but would have gone out of my way to make those men feel welcome. I would have empathy with what I would presume they might be feeling. The difficulty is when that kind of reaction is coupled with a group of people who do not in any way require that kind of helpful welcome, but instead take advantage of it for entirely different reasons.

It’s very easy to see why there would be women who would be so busy defending those they see as needing help that they could easily be turned against others they perceived to be unfairly discriminating or rude.

userzerozero · 27/07/2021 18:16

I wish that I had seen the deleted post because I find myself in a similar situation.

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/07/2021 18:28

@userzerozero

I wish that I had seen the deleted post because I find myself in a similar situation.
I had said that it is probably worth the effort for the OP to start her own private, secret group where women are added under strict guidelines and vetting so that everyone can feel reassured that their conversations and sharing of personal experiences aren't being exploited by males.
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 27/07/2021 23:14

I sympathise with OP and all women whose groups are taken over by others who derail your discussions.

Would it do any good if you quietly ignore the derailing comments? or remind members of the group’s purposes, specifically for women who have always been women and are experiencing a change in sexual orientation?

The TW’s experience of changing gender while remaining sexually attracted to women is irrelevant to that specific concern. I know you know that! But maybe you could make a clear policy of publishing only comments on that specific topic.

It’s maddening that we have to pussy-foot around keeping others happy when we’re trying to meet our own legitimate needs. I hope you can find a group that refuses to be derailed.

lalalalalafeelingroovy · 28/07/2021 00:09

@thinkingaboutLangCleg Would it do any good if you quietly ignore the derailing comments? or remind members of the group’s purposes, specifically for women who have always been women and are experiencing a change in sexual orientation?

I definitely was just ignoring the topics but grew less and less comfortable discussing personal topics of a sexual nature when I was feeling increasingly convinced that it was being used as part of someone's fetish.

It wouldn't have really worked to try to insist on keeping things specific because the conversations were largely just natural online conversations that would go off in all sorts of tangents about tv shows or what we're having for dinner or weird dreams, etc. It was nice, sometimes some groups could go on for hours of utterly unrelated to sexuality chatter. Often the poster who'd bring it back to sex/relationships then would be a transwoman, and that would set my alarm bells ringing that they wanted back into sex talk for less legitimate reasons. Because again, that talk wasn't relevant to their situation.

What @AnyOldPrion describes about going out of her way to make these people feel extra welcome is almost certainly the nail on the head. I would 100% have been the same 2 or 3 years ago. I would have been so eager to show them just how welcome they were I'd have gone over and above to make sure they never felt unwelcome that I would never have questioned whether it was an appropriate group for them and if it isn't, why they were there.

OP posts:
PearPickingPorky · 28/07/2021 05:25

Women always defer to men in groups, it's a dynamic not specific to transwomen. That's why the presence of a male, any male - identity irrelevant - makes a difference in lots of situations and why it's recognised that women frequently benefit from single-sex provisions, because it's the only way for them (women/ girls) to be able to derive any real benefit from the service/ group/ discussion.

Would it be worth setting up a support thread for formerly straight females exploring their sexuality on here? Maybe not on Feminism & women's rights, maybe on the LGBT or Relationships board? In site there are many women in the same position as you and the support network might be really helpful.

NonnyMouse1337 · 28/07/2021 07:15

Would it be worth setting up a support thread for formerly straight females exploring their sexuality on here?

The nature of the topic (women discussing attraction to women and other personal details) will inevitably bring along the same kind of males that blighted the groups that OP used to be in.

Clymene · 28/07/2021 07:35

Unless a group's admins have a policy of quietly removing men who identify as women from online groups (and one I'm in I think does just that as occasionally a very vocal transwoman pops up, makes a flurry of posts quite unlike ones from women, and then disappears.), thus is always going to happen.

ChattyLion · 28/07/2021 07:37

Someone 'changing gender' is not a change in attraction at all, its not the same thing.

Exactly. Men must stop intruding on women’s spaces. Some things are not for men. That’s OK. That’s necessary. Men and women are not the same. That’s reality. Different needs. Women’s needs will still need to be met, women’s needs will always exist- whether the language is forcibly or voluntarily changed or not and even if a few other people don’t like this idea.

KohlaParasanda · 28/07/2021 07:57

Even if a group member ignored a male participant, the fact that they're waggling their big hairy ears in a "room" set aside for women to talk about their same sex attraction would be a deterrent to having a conversation about anything more intimate than the order in which jam and cream should go on a scone.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 28/07/2021 09:29

sometimes some groups could go on for hours of utterly unrelated to sexuality chatter. Often the poster who'd bring it back to sex/relationships then would be a transwoman

Yes. I was thinking it could work if the whole group quietly ignored inappropriate comments, just didn’t respond to them. But of course the TW will say their comments aren’t inappropriate to the group’s purpose. And many women will beeeee kiiiind to any intruder. What a shame.

PearPickingPorky · 28/07/2021 10:39

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

sometimes some groups could go on for hours of utterly unrelated to sexuality chatter. Often the poster who'd bring it back to sex/relationships then would be a transwoman

Yes. I was thinking it could work if the whole group quietly ignored inappropriate comments, just didn’t respond to them. But of course the TW will say their comments aren’t inappropriate to the group’s purpose. And many women will beeeee kiiiind to any intruder. What a shame.

True, even if the males have their comments deleted or aren't allowed to post, then I'd still be uncomfortable talking about sex (thinking it was only other women I was talking to) if there were males watching/reading and getting off on it.

(Why do male-sexed people have to always overstep women's boundaries?)
women's