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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mid-life new same sex attraction being fetishised

66 replies

lalalalalafeelingroovy · 27/07/2021 15:05

Total name change for this as I'm pretty nervous about posting it. Back during the first lockdown, being home and so often alone brought about a lot of introspection. I'm a divorced single parent and haven't had any romantic or sexual relationship/contact of any kind since my marriage ended close to a decade ago. I'm far from asexual but whenever any sort of opportunity or suggestion for dating/hooking up with a man has come up, I have backed right off it. When the pandemic started one of the things that hit me was that in a lot of ways the choice/opportunity to meet a guy was lost to me for the foreseeable. Which was a mix of tough, because at times I do feel frustrated by the complete lack of a sex life but also absolutely fine because I so feel such a very strong aversion to being in another relationship with a man.

I've always identified as 100% straight. When people trot out the 'everyone is a bit bisexual' trope I've always felt it's belittling to all straight and gay people, but especially women, as it's so often just aimed at straight women. However, throughout lockdown for a genuine string of reasons, I started to feel more and more attraction to women. It started as a massive shock, one that I rationalised as a reaction to long-term celibacy, something my brain dreamed up to distract me from the pandemic, a desire to feel more special, a reaction to a terrible marriage etc. But over time, I think I actually probably am attracted to women too and can identify various times in my teens and twenties where that attraction surfaced and I rejected it.

I've taken a lot of time thinking through this, I've read a lot about it, articles and fiction. I've watched a lot of lesbian/bisexual media, including some youtube channels. I learned that it's actually reasonably common for women my age to develop same sex attraction later in life. Sometimes those women identify as completely lesbian, sometimes bisexual. My biggest fear as I've developed these feelings is experimenting with a lesbian woman and hurting her if it turned out this is just some sort of mid-life crisis. So I'm thinking that it's good that the pandemic has given me time to think through everything as much as I can alone.

And while going over everything, I found there are quite a few online chat groups for women who are developing these feelings when older, often after marrying a man, to discuss this with each other. I joined some of these groups last year and initially they were great. It's been really interesting to see the similarities and differences in our experiences. It's interesting to read about those who are further into their journey are getting on with dating other women. Or telling other people in their lives.

But I've come up against an issue that's increasingly a problem for me. After the first few weeks/months in a group, you start to get used to the most regular users. And as I worked out who they were, I also realised that as many as 1/4 or more of the regulars were transwomen. I kind of instinctually wasn't happy about that but I really couldn't work out why I felt that way. But as time went on, it became really obvious to me that our experiences weren't the same. The transwomen on these groups all identify as late in life lesbians because it's later in life that they have started identifying as women. their attractions haven't changed. Whereas the women in the groups are processing either a complete change in who they are attracted to or an expansion of it.

A discussion about our past relationships with men and whether or not there was real attraction, real enjoyment of the sex, how we felt then, how we feel in retrospect, etc, has nothing in common with someone who was a straight man and now identifies as a gay woman. Leaving aside any suggestion of AGP, and assuming that a male bodied person, identifying as a woman and maintaining an attraction to women, is a genuine gender orientation. Surely if you joined a group of previously straight identifying women, talking through their emerging attraction to women, you'd quickly recognise that your experiences had nothing in common, say best wishes guys, and go set up your own group to discuss your own specific, very, very different experiences. There are plenty of broader LGBTQ+ groups to connect with the whole broader community and discuss the experiences you may have in common. You wouldn't just stay and keep inserting your own irrelevant experiences into a unique and unrelated discussion group. Instead these posters join right in and are often the among the most prolific posters, just constantly inserting their own experience into the discussion.

So it makes me really feel like ultimately this isn't coming from a place of a genuine need to process their feelings and connect with those in similar situations. It actually does make me feel fetishised. Like these are men just really enjoying getting to join in and steer these discussions women are trying to have about our sexuality. Often the whole discussion turns to kink/BDSM, which makes me feel extremely uncomfortable because this tends to be one of the topics that becomes most dominated by the transwomen posters. I've never been able to participate in those discussions because I just feel really, really weirded out by them. Even though I think they touch on some interesting points that I'd actually like to discuss.

In the end I left most of the groups because something that was helping me make sense of my feelings became something that I was increasingly very uncomfortable in. I know, realistically that it's the internet, any poster can be claiming to be a woman in my age group and could be a 90 year old man or 13 year old boy or anyone else. But this isn't even pretending. It straight up feels like a space for women to discuss very private and confusing parts of themselves, has been made into something the opposite of safe. I miss having the groups. I really wanted to have the space to work through everything. I wasn't in a hurry to take how I'm feeling further just yet but I think I want to eventually and I wanted to be able to do it with a support network. Yet I feel instead like overall, it just turned out to be a bit of a creepy experience.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 28/07/2021 10:50

I completely understand, OP.

This is why so many groups for lesbians/bi women have had to go back underground.

And no, as far as I'm concerned the suggestion to just ignore the not-female people in a group dealing with a uniquely female experience, is not an adequate solution. The mere presence of a not-female in a group like that is akin to voyeurism, and I don't think that is ever acceptable.

3womeninaboat · 28/07/2021 11:00

Just find or set up a group for women assigned female at birth. The other groups don’t seem specific enough for your needs.
If these groups were trans inclusive when you joined them it isn’t like anything has been taken away from you. It’s just that your image of the group as only being for women exactly like you was erroneous.

IsItAKindofDream · 28/07/2021 11:13

@3womeninaboat

Just find or set up a group for women assigned female at birth. The other groups don’t seem specific enough for your needs. If these groups were trans inclusive when you joined them it isn’t like anything has been taken away from you. It’s just that your image of the group as only being for women exactly like you was erroneous.
That group would be extremely small as only a very tiny number of girls are “assigned female at birth” - this being due to have a rare disorder of sexual development. Do you mean “observed female at birth” - like the vast majority of girls?
EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 28/07/2021 11:16

I had said that it is probably worth the effort for the OP to start her own private, secret group where women are added under strict guidelines and vetting so that everyone can feel reassured that their conversations and sharing of personal experiences aren't being exploited by males.

Yes. Our misogynist monitors wouldn’t like that idea at all.

lalalalalafeelingroovy · 28/07/2021 12:04

@3womeninaboat

Just find or set up a group for women assigned female at birth. The other groups don’t seem specific enough for your needs. If these groups were trans inclusive when you joined them it isn’t like anything has been taken away from you. It’s just that your image of the group as only being for women exactly like you was erroneous.
How silly of me to erroneously assume that my image of a group for women to discuss newly emerging same-sex attraction would only be for women with newly emerging same sex attraction. And not also for a significant number of people who's attraction to women was as the same as it always had been. So had no shared experience in this specific journey. Who have nothing relevant to add when discussing moments of same sex attraction they remember from their youth but ignored/repressed. Who have nothing relevant to add about their history of relationships with men and what they are now feeling about them. Who have nothing relevant to add about the things that triggered this new emergence of feelings.

While not everyone in these groups will be the same. Some are realising they are only attracted to women, some are realising they are likely bisexual. Some are looking back at their past relationships with me and realising they were never attracted to any of them. Some feel they were and are attracted to men but can recognise unhealthy patterns. Some people never married, some are still married and not sure if they want to end the marriage or not, some are already divorced. Some want to act on what they are feeling, others feel ok that they won't but want to process their feelings. Some always knew on some level they were attracted to women some had previously identified as 100% straight. But even within that range of experiences, all are women who are finding themselves newly looking at other women in a very different way and wondering what it means for their lives now and going forward.

Transwomen who were and are always attracted to women are not going through the same thing and are not who the group is clearly set out for. They should have and should want to have their own group to discuss their life changes. They should not join a group for women discussing what it's like to go from 'straight' to same sex attracted. And if they joined in an innocent mistake, should quickly see it's not a group for them and move on because it is the only respectful thing to do. The fact that so many not only stay but take on extremely active roles in a group set up for a very specific experience that they do not share, is a sign that their intentions are just not legitimate.

OP posts:
Artichokeleaves · 28/07/2021 12:07

@3womeninaboat

Just find or set up a group for women assigned female at birth. The other groups don’t seem specific enough for your needs. If these groups were trans inclusive when you joined them it isn’t like anything has been taken away from you. It’s just that your image of the group as only being for women exactly like you was erroneous.
Very disingenous.

And blaming women for not shutting up and pretending their needs are met in 'inclusive' women's groups, which are actually in reality mixed sex groups.

Mixed sex often does not work for women. It is not naughty for women to have needs or say that they have needs, or to expect there to be groups that focus on and meet the needs of female people. Female lives do not have to revolve at all times around the needs of natal male people. They do not have to erase and restrict and silence themselves at all times for the needs and benefit and better happiness of natal male people.

It's rather sad that natal male people don't extend the same sympathy, compassion and recognition of special needs of female people that are so readily demanded of female people. Or permit female people to have some spaces and services and resources of their own.

sailmeaway · 28/07/2021 13:36

Maybe get off the internet and try to meet some real-life gay women? Start by going to a local meet up, local bar, book grp or whatever and take it from there. Will probably be more useful to you than trying to analyse your sexuality on a forum with lots of strangers. You don't know if they really are TW or just straight blokes being weird, or if they are men, women, gay, straight.
But in RL in the gay community you will find that TW and TM are part of that community and that we all rub along pretty well together. And if someone asks you out and you don't fancy they for whatever reason - whether they're gay, bi, trans, butch, femme WHATEVER you just say thanks but no thanks and thats the end of it.

sailmeaway · 28/07/2021 13:40

'Transwomen who were and are always attracted to women are not going through the same thing and are not who the group is clearly set out for. '

Says who? You've come into these grps as a newbie, you don't get to set all the rules. Go out and actually meet some LGBTQ+ people in RL, but beware, you will find that TW and TM are 'allowed' to be there too...

Artichokeleaves · 28/07/2021 13:44

The hostility to female people who dare to want spaces and voices that don't have to fit around male people is absolutely palpable. The shaming and scolding for not complying is fairly obvious too.

Homosexual women sometimes want spaces of their own. This is exactly why many lesbian groups have been forced back underground.

Artichokeleaves · 28/07/2021 13:47

@sailmeaway

'Transwomen who were and are always attracted to women are not going through the same thing and are not who the group is clearly set out for. '

Says who? You've come into these grps as a newbie, you don't get to set all the rules. Go out and actually meet some LGBTQ+ people in RL, but beware, you will find that TW and TM are 'allowed' to be there too...

Seriously?

"Welcome to the LGBT+ community. Come and meet us. Beware of non compliance."

We never used to treat newcomers like this. We used to know what inclusion actually meant. We used to have basic empathy, compassion and respect for others that was not exclusively kept for males.

sailmeaway · 28/07/2021 13:48

I honestly think if you go on the internet or forums and start talking about sex, your sex life or your sexual attraction you are going to get weirdos popping up to get off on what you're saying...

dyslek · 28/07/2021 13:50

Says reality. The experiance is not compariable.

The OP is expeianceing changes in her sexuality, a sensitive topic for most people and want to discuss this topic with people who are experiancing the same.

A TW who was a hetrosexual man and who is now a 'lesbian' TW has not experianced any change in their sexuality.

Its that simple.

dyslek · 28/07/2021 13:52

@sailmeaway

I honestly think if you go on the internet or forums and start talking about sex, your sex life or your sexual attraction you are going to get weirdos popping up to get off on what you're saying...
This is the 'your going to get raped/abused/perved on anyway' argument. Its bollocks.
FloralBunting · 28/07/2021 14:02

The current iteration of LGBTQ+ 'inclusivity' is basically 'Everything is mixed sex, LGB people either have to repeatedly turn down advances from the opposite sex and be quiet about homosexuality or fuck off'.

Go along to a gay bar or book group to practice this, also we'll be much better at coercing you face to face.

Them's the choices in the Love is Love club. Silence, coercion, or ostracism. Doesn't it warm the heart?

OldTurtleNewShell · 28/07/2021 14:03

And if someone asks you out and you don't fancy they for whatever reason - whether they're gay, bi, trans, butch, femme WHATEVER you just say thanks but no thanks and thats the end of it.

It should be the end of it, but if a woman's 'no' was generally respected, we'd no longer need these forums and OP wouldn't need to post on here about not being able to have a women-only group.

sailmeaway · 28/07/2021 14:04

'This is the 'your going to get raped/abused/perved on anyway' argument. Its bollocks.'

No it's not. It's the you'll always get people gloaming on in this way, just like in internet dating there's always some toe-rag sending dick pics.
So ignore the weirdos who want to talk about kink, and try to stick with the ones who aren't de-railing genuine convos.
And meeting people in real -life might also help OP with her new ( possible) queerness.

sailmeaway · 28/07/2021 14:06

@FloralBunting
Not sure where you're going out this days but that's not my experience of the gay scene in our city,

FloralBunting · 28/07/2021 14:15

Uh-huh. I'm sure. I mean, you just said to the OP to 'beware' because there will be males in groups for lesbians and bi women (do correct me if I'm wrong that you think TW can be lesbians) and then you used a slur for her potential sexuality. So I think there's good evidence you don't really understand where she's coming from, or indeed any of us who are excluded by mixed sex settings that masquerade as single sex.

sailmeaway · 28/07/2021 14:17

Start your own grp OP. `Then you can control it all and chuck out people you don't like, no?

OldTurtleNewShell · 28/07/2021 14:28

@sailmeaway

Start your own grp OP. `Then you can control it all and chuck out people you don't like, no?
The last time I was in a group that was openly for women only, the admin got doxxed which included male people coming to her house and making threats while her children were there. I've also seen 'terf hunters' screenshotting profile pictures of women that included their children and 'outing' them on twitter as 'terfs' for the crime of nothing other than belonging to a feminist Facebook group that had nothing to do with trans issues. If you think that women can just set up our own groups without being harassed IRL for it, you're either incredibly naive or being deliberately obtuse.
FloralBunting · 28/07/2021 14:30

And there's that good faith characterizing a woman who wants a woman only space to discuss her experience of being attracted to her own sex as 'controlling' and 'chucking out people you don't like'.

Familiar. I'm sure any lesbian or bi woman querying where she go to find her space is thoroughly reassured that the places you're suggesting will be welcoming and safe for her. Definitely.

lalalalalafeelingroovy · 28/07/2021 14:33

@sailmeaway

'Transwomen who were and are always attracted to women are not going through the same thing and are not who the group is clearly set out for. '

Says who? You've come into these grps as a newbie, you don't get to set all the rules. Go out and actually meet some LGBTQ+ people in RL, but beware, you will find that TW and TM are 'allowed' to be there too...

Says them. I've spent more than enough time in the groups to read posts by the majority of posters who are identifying as transwomen and they nearly all specifically interject into conversations about past relationships with men or the first times you started to suspect you were attracted to women, to state clearly that their experiences are different. That they never had that feeling of being sexually attracted to men or changing feelings making them reassess their past relationships with men. They may continue on to give their opinion based on something they have read or how they believe it relates to their experience when it doesn't really seem to. But they are quite clear that they are absolutely not experiencing a shift in who they are attracted to, which is very much the purpose of the group.

As for the suggestion to go to a gay bar, etc, instead of being online. There are number of reasons I don't want to do that at this time.

I want to have a better handle on how I feel before I actually engage another human being in my exploration of how I'm feeling. If this turns out to be some sort of phase, I'd rather not have used another person to work that out before I am as sure as I can be that isn't what I'm doing.

The majority of my current social group happen to be gay men and lesbian and bisexual women. Real people that I care about a lot. I really don't want to seem like I'm trying to interject myself into a part of their world that may not be for me. It's probably no coincidence that at a point in my life where I'm socialising more with gay people than I have at any other point, that I've started to experience a shift in how I feel. But I'm not actually 100% sure if it's that being around them that has allowed me to drop the barriers I had up against my attraction to women. Or if maybe I'm just really childishly keen to join in? I don't think it's the latter but I need time to process and feel more sure first.

I'm a single parent with sole custody of a young child. I have limited options in when I can socialise alone. And as well as all that, we are in still in a pandemic of a highly transmissable disease. I know we can go to bars but in all honesty, I don't feel super comfortable socialising in large indoor groups right now. I absolutely don't want to throw myself out of my comfort zone while I don't even feel comfortable because of the virus.

So yep, I know that anyone could be anyone online. But right now, I have a strong preference for a variety of reasons, to stick to more internal exploration.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 28/07/2021 14:40

And you respect boundaries and don't want to use others as you find out who you are, lalala. You have my complete support.❤

Artichokeleaves · 28/07/2021 14:57

And it is wholly valid to want to be a female, talking exclusively to other females for a particular need or situation specific to females.

How male people feel about not being part of this has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Female people are not required to facilitate and revolve around male people's feelings and needs at all times. Massive, massive lack of respect for women is right at the heart of this.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 28/07/2021 15:05

Best of luck with this, Lalala. It's a difficult time for lesbians discovering their sexuality, under the pandemic and the dominance of the gender-identity movement. But neither of them will last for ever. I hope all goes well for you.