What is wrong with the term 'Sex workers'?

[MapGirlExtraordinaire]

I'm going to post this then disappear for the day, just because I'm about to visit family, not intending to be rude to posters.

I was recently speaking with a female friend who kept using the term 'sex worker' to describe prostitutes. I felt very uncomfortable, fully on board with the MN feminist view that all prostitution is abuse and should be named as such.

However my friend was clear that 'this is their preferred name, it's what they ask to be called' and I didn't have much of a reply except that I haven't seen that and very much doubt more than a miniscule minority are happy content working women who have put time and effort into deciding what they want their job title to be.

My friend was very unimpressed by my reply. We also clashed about me being terfy later to her mind ('I hate jkr's politics' says my left leaning friend who is interested in philanthropy... often focussing on women in business. Unlike JKR obvs )

Just wondering if any MNers can point me in the way of a more robust reply to why pretending prostitution is a specialist career choice on a par with eg accountancy?

Thanks

IF her line is prostitution is a fun way to earn lots of money and it's just work

Ask her if she thinks that orgs that are for women who want to exit are pointless. Should they be defunded and closed?

Ask her if she would agree to home with a man she had spoken to for a couple of mins outside a shop. Let's say he said he had something she really wanted to see at his house. A picasso or a lion or whatever. Would she think twice about going? Would she go at all? If not why not.

if she says yes I would without a second thought then she's either lying, incredibly naive, or not at all risk averse!

If she says no. Why not? And if not, why does she not think it's unsafe to go to men's homes or have them come to yours, who you have zero idea who they are.

Because it legitimises their abusers as “customers”

In the end is there any point in you two having these conversations?

It's clear that you have very different perspectives. It's an emotive topic. I doubt either of you will change your minds any time in the foreseeable future.

If she's you friend and you want to keep it that way then I'd just avoid this stuff tbh.

Out of interest, which one of you brings these things up and what prompts it?

A sex worker is an adult who sells sexual services. It doesn't refer to trafficked victims (trafficked victims are called trafficked). It can include things like stripping and cam-work, but usually refers to prostitution.

It's the term used by many sex workers themselves and groups made up of them, as well as local and international human rights, health, anti-STD and anti-trafficking orgs.

Although I understand some here think any org that uses the term "sex worker" or advocates for decriminalisation is "run by pimps".

"How is it taxed?"

In Britain, sex workers have to pay tax on their earnings.

"What's the pay scale?"

I had a look on an escort directory. Prices are generally between £100 and £200 for an hour. "High class" escorts in big cities or porn stars may charge several hundred pounds an hour.

Street prostitution (which has been illegal since 2007) prices are usually much lower.

"Is there a Union?"

Look up Scot-Pep and Umbrella Lane. I think they might count.

"If someone is dissatisfied, do they get a refund?"

I doubt it.

When talking about the harms of selling sex then it's a different group.

It includes those being abused trafficked etc and excludes those doing cam work etc.

Oh sorry wrong thread!

That's another side to it then.

If sex work excludes those being exploited then it's definitely not the right term to use when discussing the harms specially of prostitution.

Another sleight of hand with that term then.

Thanks for that margarita.

There has been at least one study which showed that use of terms like ‘prostitute’ make people feel more negatively towards women who sell sex. For example, if a headline in a newspaperidentifies the victim of a rape or a murder as a prostitute, there is less sympathy and concern, and the women are viewed as less human and more deserving of what happened to them. I’ll see if I can find it - I read it a long time ago.

That would be useful thanks.

It was a big thing with the Yorkshire ripper wasn't it.

Unless it's pertinent I see no reason to report on what their job is anyone.

I tend to say women who sell sex.

Because when talking about the harms of that specific role the use of sex worker masks, minimises etc.

The fact that the word makes people see those women negatively is not to do with words but with social views/ judgement.

The words can be changed over and over but the underlying attitude won't and that's a problem.

In this day and age there are many different forms of prostitution and the term 'sex work' seems to cover everything.
A prostitute is a person who takes money for sexual services but I think some lap dancers and strippers would object to being called prostitutes in the same way some women marketing themselves as 'Escorts' would also object but they are all sex workers providing sexual services.
It's all about marketing isn't it?.
A 'Courtesan' markets herself at the rich man who will take her to places where she won't embarrass herself or him, for a large fee, and the rich man who wants sexual services seeks out the services of a courtesan for those reasons.
Men who see 'Escorts' expect the lady to be well dressed and not look like a tart (unless they request it). They feel safer seeing someone like this and kid themselves the lady is willing and happy to be with them. They would not use the term 'sex worker' To the man who sees escorts a sex worker is the girl on the street. A sex worker is a drug addict.

So the girls use another handle to attract a certain type of client.

It will never be cut and dried. Men will never take responsibility for what they do preferring to think the prostitutes they see are not working but having fun and some sex workers are not working at all but being worked by others.

Prostitute has a very specific meaning.

It always has.

The word courtesan isn't in use is it? I mean generally.

Not look like a 'tart'??

FFS

@NiceGerbil

That would be useful thanks.

It was a big thing with the Yorkshire ripper wasn't it.

Unless it's pertinent I see no reason to report on what their job is anyone.

I tend to say women who sell sex.

Because when talking about the harms of that specific role the use of sex worker masks, minimises etc.

The fact that the word makes people see those women negatively is not to do with words but with social views/ judgement.

The words can be changed over and over but the underlying attitude won't and that's a problem.

Little derail. I just watched a documentary on Jack the Ripper on Netflixs. The police's use of the word prostitute to describe the victims actually hampered the investigation. Some of the women were described as having loose morals and so it was assumed they were prostitutes. Some were single mums so it was assumed they were prostitutes. It was disgraceful sexism. Also racism one had a Jamaican boyfriend. The police could have connected the dots a lot earlier if they hadn't decided that they were after a prostitute killer. Sutcliffe had attacked other women outside of prostitution but the police didn't make the connection.

As a mum to two daughters I don't accept the term sex work. Careers day for them will be about their academic and creative potential not if they can sell their body. I think sex work is used to normalise violence against another person's body and make women think they are being a prude if they don't consider it as a way out of their poverty. Let's face it most of the "customers" are male so it is in their interests to normalise it so they can have access to a bigger workforce.
Language is really important, on this board we know how important language is and how the meaning of words can be altered to suit a purpose that leaves women in the shit.

@NiceGerbil

In the end is there any point in you two having these conversations?

It's clear that you have very different perspectives. It's an emotive topic. I doubt either of you will change your minds any time in the foreseeable future.

If she's you friend and you want to keep it that way then I'd just avoid this stuff tbh.

Out of interest, which one of you brings these things up and what prompts it?

In other words, ‘be kind’ 😩

@MargaritaPie

A sex worker is an adult who sells sexual services. It doesn't refer to trafficked victims (trafficked victims are called trafficked). It can include things like stripping and cam-work, but usually refers to prostitution.

It's the term used by many sex workers themselves and groups made up of them, as well as local and international human rights, health, anti-STD and anti-trafficking orgs.

Although I understand some here think any org that uses the term "sex worker" or advocates for decriminalisation is "run by pimps".

Which makes it sound all lovely and fun. Trafficked women and girls may be referred to as sex workers by the very people doing the trafficking or paying for the use of their bodies. It makes it sound so much more acceptable. A woman who decides to use her body to make money is still prostituting herself. Calling her a sex worker isn’t a good look.

I personally prefer the term sex workers as I think 'prostitute' is and has been such a derogatory term.

It's nothing to do with sanitizing or normalising it as an industry.

I think it must be awful for the vast majority of women who do it but I'm still happy to use the term of their preference.

'Sex worker' is a term which creates an umbrella over the whole 'industry'

Pimps, traffickers, prostitutes, trafficked women and girls, online and phone sex workers are all 'sex workers'

It makes the whole mess seem less toxic and dangerous.

Say it as you see it. Prostitution. Prostitutes. Sex slaves. Pimps. Traffickers.

Don't euphemise or 'dial it down'.

It's just bullshit isn't it? In no other work does your boss or your customer/client get to penetrate you or subject you degrading acts they need to pay someone to do let them. Sharing and being exposed to bodily fluids is viscerally personal, and most of the work is dangerous, not because buying sex is illegal in some places, but because the men who pay for sex aren't really bothered by the fact that the only reason that woman is having sex with them is because if money. Full consent isn't really a priority and that comes with a lot of associated risks.

Prostitute had become a 'derogotry" term because it is very specific. It describes a woman who sells sexual acts for money. Replace it with 'sex worker' and you muddy what's being sold. It could be exotic dancing, erotic cakes whatever. You lose the implied risks and lived reality of the person (usually forced to do it)
So yes, it does sanitise it, because to lose the meaning of the word minimises what that person has to do. It creates a situation where the person describing them doesn't have to think about the unpleasant implications for the person in that role. But it doesn't take away the negative reality of the role. The danger is still there.
A
Specific word is needed to apply to a specific situation where someone isn't an escort or exotic dancer(I notice they are neatly conflated above). If the word sex worker started being used for just prostituted people, it would gather the same negative connotations as prostitute. It's the role that attracts negative views, not the word. If we all started using courtesan, it would be exactly the same.

No matter what word you use. The reality stays the same. It's exploitation. It's often addiction. It's often abuse. it's dangerous.

Do you think if men were in the position of being likely to be murdered or have anal prolapse because of their 'job' there'd be a rush to normalise it?

How does the friend know that it is ‘their preferred term’? I suspect if you asked some poor kid who had been trafficked onto it which they’d prefer, they’d say that they’d preferred not to have been trafficked or tricked into it.

It’s not flipping Pretty Woman, and no ‘cam gal’ is making £££££££ a week and buying a flay on Canary Wharf.

"Do you think if men were in the position of being likely to be murdered or have anal prolapse because of their 'job' there'd be a rush to normalise it?"

It is interesting to note male sex workers are often completely ignored by society, media and politicians who think they don't exist.

Try this out for yourself if you want- do a search on any of the escort directories for active sex workers male then female and the results might surprise you. Between a quarter and a third are men.

I tried it just now for the UK: 13436 female, 3943 male. 29.3% male

I tried it just now for the UK: 13436 female, 3943 male. 29.3% male

I should think numbers are comparable for camming and other aspects of sex as a consumer item.

It did, however, make me wonder briefly if male providers of sex as a consumer item are subject to the same consumer ratings or comparable criticisms on places like Punters (I don't know if they're rated there in the same way that women are or if there's a separate site).

The existence of male prostitutes doesn't negate the need for a separate word. After all, if called sex workers they'd be easily lost amongst the traffickers etc.
Your statistic still means that the overwhelmingly majority of prostitutes are women. Vulnerable women are my priority: whether it's one or a hundred. Obscuring reality with euphemisms doesn't change reality.

Ask her if a person locked in a room and forced to have sex with many people against their will, so being raped, is a sex worker.

Ask her if she would be happy with her husband/ partner seeking the professional services of a “sex worker” if he felt he required them, as I would the services of a plumber or dentist ☺️

Sex work incorporates other "occupations" eg streaming, exotic dancing etc. As to its legitimacy? Well that's a matter of debate - can a woman (or man) choose to use their body in these ways to make money freely without coercion? I'm on the fence because I met someone who claims she does, loves her "work" and is mortgage free at 34, it's lucrative!