Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is wrong with the term 'Sex workers'?

94 replies

MapGirlExtraordinaire · 24/07/2021 12:04

I'm going to post this then disappear for the day, just because I'm about to visit family, not intending to be rude to posters.

I was recently speaking with a female friend who kept using the term 'sex worker' to describe prostitutes. I felt very uncomfortable, fully on board with the MN feminist view that all prostitution is abuse and should be named as such.

However my friend was clear that 'this is their preferred name, it's what they ask to be called' and I didn't have much of a reply except that I haven't seen that and very much doubt more than a miniscule minority are happy content working women who have put time and effort into deciding what they want their job title to be.

My friend was very unimpressed by my reply. We also clashed about me being terfy later to her mind ('I hate jkr's politics' says my left leaning friend who is interested in philanthropy... often focussing on women in business. Unlike JKR obvs Hmm )

Just wondering if any MNers can point me in the way of a more robust reply to why pretending prostitution is a specialist career choice on a par with eg accountancy?

Thanks

OP posts:
MarkRuffaloCrumble · 24/07/2021 14:47

If sex work is like any other type of work, ask your friend if she’d be ok with jobs being posted at the job centre and women being under pressure to take them or have their benefits sanctioned.

MarkRuffaloCrumble · 24/07/2021 14:48

Or whether on schools career day, a sex worker should come in an explain to the kids that this is a great option for well paid and flexible hours. As long as they don’t mind the anal prolapse and probable rape part.

Viviennemary · 24/07/2021 14:50

I think the term sex worker is horrible as is prostitute. The old term Lady of the night is a lot more flattering.

FlyPassed · 24/07/2021 17:21

@Maria53 my fault, i didn't notice the name wasn't included in the link!

The woman was really quite disdainful, wasn't she? Women who've been through it know that the horrors are still horrors even if you give it a fluffy name. The problem with prostitution isn't that it's called prostitution!

midgemagneto · 24/07/2021 17:25

I also think that calling it work not prostitution sounds more respectable, better for your self esteem, fool yourself it was free choice

DdraigGoch · 24/07/2021 17:42

I prefer "victim of sexual exploitation".

Abhannmor · 24/07/2021 17:49

You don't get a lot of ppl trafficked into eg plumbing or waiting tables.

Micemakingclothes · 24/07/2021 18:02

For every individual who wants to claim the term “sex worker” and declares the job was chosen freely, we know there are more individuals, overwhelmingly women, who are being trafficked or otherwise forced into the role. I can’t use the term “sex worker” or even argue for enforcing laws against prostitutes as long as vulnerable people, again mostly women, are being raped and violated in the industry. If the minority of individuals engaging in this kind of economic exchange could miraculously remove the trafficking and coercion, then they might have an argument. It’s simply impossible though. There will always be more demand than supply.

I used to believe prostitution should be legal and woman should have full autonomy over what they do with their bodies. I saw a documentary by Lisa Ling that went into the economics of a legal brothel and it really opened my eyes. I obviously did more reading from there, but I could never go back to believing in “sex work” again.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 24/07/2021 18:02

You don't get a lot of ppl trafficked into eg plumbing or waiting tables

tbh, I'm not sure about the latter within some discussions about modern slavery.

A new report published by the Gangmasters & Labour Abuse Authority (GLAA) found that Indians are in the top 10 victim nationalities at risk of human trafficking and forced labor in the UK. Vietnamese nationals were the most at risk, followed by migrant workers from Romania, Poland, China, Sudan, and India.

The GLAA reports notes that Indian workers commonly work in the hotel and restaurant industry in the UK.

www.freedomunited.org/news/indians-uk-restaurant-sector-greater-risk-modern-slavery/

sleepyhead · 24/07/2021 18:10

Yeah, I was going to mention the Emma Caldwell podcast. It's important and powerful listening if you haven't heard it already.

As someone who had a neighbour who was a street prostitute at the same time and the same streets as Emma, I saw her bruises, lost teeth and complete loss of self. And I celebrated with the woman who returned, drug free and looking 20 years younger when she'd been finally persuaded by her family to get out, come home and get help.

She wasn't empowered. She wasn't a cam girl or selling only fans nudes. She was on the sharp end of prostitution which is ugly and dangerous, and she barely escaped with her life. Many Glasgow girls weren't so lucky.

And that was when the police were telling the women to stick to specific streets where there were cameras. Funnily enough, the men in cars took them elsewhere to rape, beat up and sometimes murder.

Micemakingclothes · 24/07/2021 18:15

www.feministcurrent.com/2016/10/24/lisa-ling-endorses-legalized-prostitution-cnns-life/

I didn’t find the Lisa Ling doc, but I did find this article about it.

Mollyollydolly · 24/07/2021 18:21

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

what other work is there where 2/3 of the 'workers' have been raped while doing their 'work' ?

what other 'work' is there that disproportionately attracts 'workers' who have been sexually abused as children (around 50%)

what other 'work' is there where around 50% of the 'workers' report current or past homelessness?

it's almost as if no-one would do this 'work' unless they were desperate, innit?

fucking 'sex work'. the cry of the middle class dick panderer with no thought about reality

This.
Deliriumoftheendless · 24/07/2021 18:22

I’ll never forget my next door neighbour many years ago yelling at her boyfriend
“I have to go out and sleep with dirty old men so you can smoke crack.” Which is not something I hear many women in other jobs saying tbh.

I think that I have a job with union protection, low risks and a pension fund is more empowering tbh.

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 18:33

OP it's because it's a term that encompasses a wide variety of different activities and therefore is used to water down the violence etc stats and point to 'sex workers' who are in relatively safe circs esp physically to show it's really not a bad thing.

It includes anyone employed in any aspect of the sex industry, eg

Camwork
Stripping
T*ttie bars
Cleaning doing admin working bar etc in a strip club
Sugar daddy situations
Camera work in porn
Pimping

Etc etc

That's why the term is objectionable. And it was coined with this exact reason in mind.

ChristmasShearwater · 24/07/2021 18:38

The German article is horrific. The abolitionists are brave.

Has Angela Merkel ever voiced her views on the legalisation of prostitution in Germany?

PatsArrow · 24/07/2021 18:40

If sex work is work....

How is it taxed?
What's the pay scale?
Where's the workplace risk assessment policies?
What protections do workers have?
Is there a Union?
If someone is dissatisfied, do they get a refund?

I agree with a PP. sex work is work is just a way of sanitising an abusive practice.

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 20:03

And most importantly...

What about health and safety at work?

That's why decriminalisstion is always called for not legalisation.

Because if it were legal, then h&s would apply. And then the circumstances under which it could happen would be... Well extremely restrictive let's put it that way.

It's all disingenuous rubbish. The oh it's no worse than stacking shelves and way better paid rubbish.

No change from what me used to say. Easy money earnt on your back. Don't even have to get out of bed.

Same shit new packaging.

SirVixofVixHall · 24/07/2021 20:03

@EishetChayil

Sex "work" isn't work.

Prostituted or bought women are the terms I use.

I agree and use the same terms. I lived in a red light area, and saw men abusing women who were so emaciated and drugged that they struggled to stand up. The men were always in suits, smart, work briefcase etc. It was horrific to witness.
Deliriumoftheendless · 24/07/2021 20:32

I’ve lived in and around the red light district for years.

The worst I saw was a woman in her underwear being thrown screaming out of a car which sped off.

Many of the women look very ill but I guess you can’t ring in sick when you’re working the streets.

MapGirlExtraordinaire · 24/07/2021 20:36

These are all really useful replies, thanks for taking the time to lay out some of the important points for me.
I'll make sure I listen to the Emma Caldwell podcast so I can understand in more detail and make these points in my own words.

My friend means we'll but she's incredibly privileged in many ways, is vaguely into kink etc and had read a lot of the sexier side of prostitution such as Diary of a call girl etc, and try as she migjt I don't think she had any sense of the misery and desperation which can lead people into prostitution.

I come from a much less privileged position so I can relate to precariousness of a life on the edge of poverty and the ease with which someone could get sucked into this world following a bit of bad luck or a bad decision.

OP posts:
Deliriumoftheendless · 24/07/2021 20:38

Yes Pat’s Arrow what’s in place for cpd in “sex work”?

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 21:18

I genuinely can't understand how any woman is so lacking in empathy/ imagination here.

The vast majority of women know how awful men can be. From girls to women there can't be many who've not experienced creepy men while out and about, aggressive men, had boyfriend who pushed at sexual barriers etc etc. It happens to all of us. You'd have to never go outside on foot, never go to a pub bar or club, never go to the park, etc etc

Is it because like so much of this it's easier to pretend it's all fine. Because if you recognise it isn't, then that means thinking about a whole load of difficult things.

I can't believe that deep down they don't at least suspect it's not all roses.

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 21:27

OP what was the wider context?

Was it just about the term sex work?

It seems her general views came up-

' such as Diary of a call girl etc, and try as she migjt I don't think she had any sense of the misery and desperation which can lead people into prostitution.'

I don't think she's tried at all has she.

I think she doesn't want to know.

ScribblingPixie · 24/07/2021 21:38

During a recession the numbers of women working as prostitutes rises. When the country's doing well economically the numbers fall. Which implies it's not a free choice but driven by poverty in many cases.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 24/07/2021 21:38

Tell her to read this in full.

extract

For many anti-human trafficking and feminist activists, “sex work” is now the preferred term for how Myers-Powell survived from the age of 14 until just before her 40th birthday, when a particularly vicious assault forced a change. But it is not a term preferred by Myers-Powell. “I understand why people [use ‘sex worker’] and I appreciate it, but, you see, I lived it. No one ever used those soft words about me. My arrest record, before it was vacated, never said ‘sex worker’. It said ‘prostitute’. The men never called me a ‘sex worker’, they called me a ‘ho’.”

And there’s another reason this terminology doesn’t sit right with her: “It makes it seem as if it’s a part of normal society – but I don’t know any prostitute that ever got a 401k [pension plan] or a paid holiday, or benefits. Do you?”

Myers-Powell’s formidable power as an advocate comes from this directness. She has never found it uncomfortable to talk about her most painful experiences. “It’s always been part of my uniqueness,” she says brightly, then goes on to prove the claim by unstintingly describing her childhood. Her 16-year-old mother died when Myers-Powell was just six months old.

She was raised by her grandmother, “a beautiful woman, a great woman, a strong woman, but she had a drinking problem, and that made her be like two different people”. Myers-Powell has many happy memories of reading comics together and baking. “She could cook anything – even hard candy!” But then there was the drinking: “There was an opportunity for her drinking partners to take advantage of me, because her focus wasn’t on me … but theirs was. So I got molested a lot.” Myers-Powell’s earliest memories of rape go back to when she was four years old.

She was often alone at home in the evenings, because her grandmother’s job as a maid for wealthy families in the suburbs meant a long commute. Her favourite entertainment was to sit at the window and watch the red light district outside.

At that time, [the prostitutes’] dressed up really nice, like Diana Ross and the Supremes, with the sparkly dresses and the big hair, and they impressed me,” she says. One day, when she was about nine, she asked her grandmother what these glamorous women were doing. “She said: ‘They take their panties off and men give them money,’ and I said: ‘I’ll probably do that when I grow up,’ – because men had already been taking my panties off.”

Continues: www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/17/brenda-myers-powell-pimped-out-left-for-dead-survived