Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

999 replies

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 21:07

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Blibbyblobby · 14/07/2021 17:55

@suggestionsplease1

A transwoman's choice to identify as a woman says no more about you than my choice to identify as a woman. I am a woman, natal woman, ciswoman/ female whatever you want to say, but my identity as such says nothing at all about your identity as a woman

I’ve gone into this in a lot more detail here, www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4204312-I-had-the-most-awful-row-with-my-teenagers-yesterday?msgid=106150248#106150248, but in brief:

I am a woman because I have a female body. It says nothing about who I am as a person, it’s simply a descriptor of my body.

The idea that there is an innate woman’s mind/brain/character other than those similarities which arise from our shared experiences and socialisation imposed on us because of our sex is deeply regressive, sexist and limiting of women. I find that abhorrent and I reject it utterly.

But a trans woman can only be a woman if we remove the female body from the definition entirely and replace it with that belief in an innate woman’s mind/brain/character.

So you see the the problem. If I accept a trans woman as a woman, I must also accept for myself a definition of womanhood that I find deeply regressive, sexist and limiting.

Yet despite this I have said again and again that I would step aside, allow womanhood to be redefined and accept that it is me who is not a woman, except that I am still female and I still need the protections that were put in place for me as a female under the name Woman when woman just meant adult human female.

And so here we are. Trans ideologues (not trans people but this repressive ideology that claims to fight for them while actually closing down all opportunities to build a truly inclusive future) demand not just my name but everything it unlocks, leaving me undefined and unprotected.

And they think they are the progressive ones!

suggestionsplease1 · 14/07/2021 17:56

@Grumblemonster

So, for trans - related issues, especially those situations where a person is considering transitioning, then sex is the only thing that is relevant to GC feminists - because after all, gendered behaviour is not really a thing - after all, what is it to be a man or a woman - either sex is perfectly capable of any characteristics and stereotypically feminine or masculine behaviour? Which is why GC feminists consider there is such a problem with identifying as the opposite sex or transitioning - because what's the point in swapping genitals when there absolutely nothing else that distinguishes a sense of what it is to be a man or a woman?

However, when it comes to things like access to spaces, GC feminists DO believe in gender over and above sex and whatever is between the legs, because they note that there IS more to it than genitals actually; there are characteristics and behaviours that seems to be associated with particular sexes, and it is important to recognise that and maintain separate spaces and treatment at times.

I think there's a bit of a consistency failure between the positions.

Again, you are failing to differentiate between statistical difference and determinitive difference.

There are statistical differences between men and women as a group. The sole determinitive difference is sex. So men are more likely to be violent, tall, brusque, interested in team sports. Some of those are biological differences which will persist regardless of culture, some may be wholly or partly socially produced. For the purposes of this argument it doesn't matter. Regardless of whether it is innate or socially produced it is still not determinitive. It is a mistake to try to apply statistical information about a group to an individual.

Suppose I have a factory that runs a thousand machines. The annual failure rate for the machines is 5%. I can expect approximately 50 failures a year. So I should budget for that. Now suppose I look at one machine individually and I say, "This machine has a 5% probability of failure, therefore it is 19 times more likely to not fail than to fail. Therefore it is unnecessary to plan for replacement or outages" Then I look at each of the other 99 machines and say the same. Now I'm failing at engineering management. Alternatively I could look at a single machine and say, "This machine has a 5% chance of failure". This could be true but only if the chance of failure is uniform. Suppose that in fact the machine has a damaged part. Failure in the next year for this particular machine could be a certainty. That doesn't mean that it isn't part of the group of my one hundred machines for which the probability of failure is 5%. It just means that there is variation across the group.

In the instance of safeguarding and single sex spaces we are excluding all men because as a group they show a higher propensity to sexual violence. That does not imply that to be male is to be sexually violent or that to be sexually violent is to be male. Ideally we would just exclude sexually violent people but there is no practical mechanism to enable that.

Now let's look at your monkeys and just take the study at face value. We see a statistical trend where male monkeys are more likely to be interested in wheeled toys. This does not mean that the 9% of male monkeys who preferred plush toys, or the 18% with no preference are not really male. Both male and female monkeys might prefer either toy or neither. If we had to guess the sex of a monkey based only on it's toy preference we could make use of the information that of the monkeys that preferred wheeled toys 65% were male, whereas for the monkeys that preferred soft toys only 22.5% were, but we cannot infer that a monkey that likes soft toys that monkey is 22.5% male and 77.5% female. It is still either male or female and that is not determined by it's toy preference.

I'm pretty much on board with your analogies of stats, but where I disagree is the way forward from that point.

OK, so we agree that males, at a population level, are more likely to be aggressive than females (and of course, that this says nothing about one individual male, as per your analogy). They are more likely to be child abusers too. What decisions do you make with that information? You could say, well, given this is statistically the case we should not let any males become teachers, because, statistically, at a population level - they are more likely to cause harm to children than female teachers.

But we haven't banned the entire male sex from teaching, have we?

Can you think why we haven't?

Apparently, according to your argument, on the statistical basis we should.

Because the situation is hugely more complex than that. What percentage risk is too much? How do you define that point? What additional advantages are gained from men as teachers - positive male role models etc?

Further, to take that step would be to consolidate gender roles and expectations - women can teach, men can't teach - you entrench the very thing that you are trying to escape - gender roles. (Which is kinda what is happening now with some viewpoints.)

And the same with transwomen in female only spaces; how do you make that call? The call, quite rightly, hasn't been made for male people to not teach, why should it be made for transwomen to not enter female only spaces? What are the larger complexities of the case? The real risk to transwomen being compelled to use male spaces? The larger mental health concerns for trans people as they experience continuing alienation from the spaces they hope to fit, their increasing social disadvantage, economic disadvantage and poor overall life outcomes.

People often talk about the law on these boards but sometimes I think there is a complete lack of awareness as to the impact of social isolation and alienation for a person. To my mind, at the point we are in this country, at this point in time, the real harm is not coming from how legislation is enacted or applied - it is coming from the social shame, the harassment, lack of respect, lack of support, the isolation, the alienation - you can not underestimate the impact these things have on lives.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2021 17:56

Sorry eresh , things do get repetitive and I don't always recall whose ideas I am echoing ( after giving them thought and approving )

Not suggesting that you did, great minds think alike Grin

CuriousPanda · 14/07/2021 17:57

@Bambooshoot

You lost me at “thought rape” - you seem to have grown up with a male privilege that a woman would never use, to describe “hurt feelings” when the shocking, and very real denial of identity as even a human being, is the reality of rape. I couldn’t ask you to understand, as it’s something only a woman could do.
Hear that Yepyes? "Thought rape", the term that you were the first to use here, makes you reek of male privilege.

Unless Bambooshoot is directing this at me, which means they're either stupid or dishonest considering I had only used it in retort to you.

OP posts:
midgemagneto · 14/07/2021 17:58

I think you missed the concept of proportionality

Yepyes · 14/07/2021 17:59

Hear that Yepyes? "Thought rape", the term that you were the first to use here, makes you reek of male privilege.

Maybe I am male, maybe I'm not.

How dare you impose an identity on me wah wah wah

chickenyhead · 14/07/2021 17:59

Which is why there should be safe but separate safe spaces and easier methods for transgender people to report crimes against their person.

They are equal but separate.

midgemagneto · 14/07/2021 17:59

So where risk is high and mitigation's are hard we discriminate

Bambooshoot · 14/07/2021 17:59

Deleted?! Please tell me why. I was not rude or offensive and my view is protected by law. So what are the criteria for deletion?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2021 18:00

why should it be made for transwomen to not enter female only spaces? What are the larger complexities of the case? The real risk to transwomen being compelled to use male spaces? The larger mental health concerns for trans people as they experience continuing alienation from the spaces they hope to fit, their increasing social disadvantage, economic disadvantage and poor overall life outcomes.

Yet no consideration of women's feelings, privacy, dignity, comfort, access to society or mental well-being due to having to share female spaces where they feel vulnerable with members of the opposite sex.

Stop pretending it's only about the statistical risk of being raped on our side, when you bend over backwards to consider male feelings on the other.

Yepyes · 14/07/2021 18:01

@CuriousPanda
Shouting 'you started it' is pointless anyway when you then appropriated the term for your own ends.

I'm sending a theme

Yepyes · 14/07/2021 18:02

*sensing a theme

CuriousPanda · 14/07/2021 18:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Yepyes · 14/07/2021 18:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted as it quotes a deleted post.

midgemagneto · 14/07/2021 18:05

What are you saying??

That The feelings of woman who would prefer a none male environment just don't count?

That the feelings of women who don't identify as transwomen dont count?

The emotion trauma of not having a safe place only matters if you are male?

midgemagneto · 14/07/2021 18:06

Social and economic disadvantage was why female toilets were introduced ffs

Female meaning sex female not feelings female

ScreamingMeMe · 14/07/2021 18:07

Oh dear. Someone doesn't understand what a social construct is.

Hope this helps!

chickenyhead · 14/07/2021 18:08

[quote Yepyes]@CuriousPanda

it's clear at this point you're simply going to be a disingenuous douchebag.

Finally some common ground![/quote]
GrinGrinGrin

Takes one to know one

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2021 18:08

I've simply used your own standards of what continues "thought rape",

Friendly words of advice: It's probably best not to continue using it if you want to stake out the moral high ground.

Secondbellini · 14/07/2021 18:10

Male teachers are not comparable to trans women in women’s spaces because male teachers go through a prolonged vetting and recruitment procedure, as do female teachers.

Blibbyblobby · 14/07/2021 18:10

The call, quite rightly, hasn't been made for male people to not teach, why should it be made for transwomen to not enter female only spaces?

Because there are a lot of controls and checks and assessments between a man (or woman) saying “I want to be a teacher” and them standing alone in front of a class. And those controls continue as long as they are in that role.

They don’t just rock up and walk through the door marked “teacher” and Bang! They are good to go! Which is what

As I said earlier, with empirical evidence that trans women as a population do not pose the same risks to women as other males and a clear way to identify a trans woman from other males, most of my concerns would go away. But according to the ideology, for female people to ask for even that is hopelessly, irredeemably transphobic.

merrymouse · 14/07/2021 18:12

The call, quite rightly, hasn't been made for male people to not teach, why should it be made for transwomen to not enter female only spaces?

The difference is level of vulnerability in the space. Awake and dressed in a classroom full of other people vs. Asleep or undressed and alone.

And the same with transwomen in female only spaces; how do you make that call?

Define trans woman.

the isolation, the alienation - you can not underestimate the impact these things have on lives.

I agree that some trans women are isolated. Their rights would be better protected if organisations that purported to represent them would explain what ‘trans’ means, because at the moment Stonewall sees no difference between somebody who has had full surgery and a diagnosis of dysphoria and somebody who likes to indulge in a fetish and somebody who would have been a goth in 1985. In fact they are campaigning to remove all recognition of difference.

Blibbyblobby · 14/07/2021 18:16

People often talk about the law on these boards but sometimes I think there is a complete lack of awareness as to the impact of social isolation and alienation for a person. To my mind, at the point we are in this country, at this point in time, the real harm is not coming from how legislation is enacted or applied - it is coming from the social shame, the harassment, lack of respect, lack of support, the isolation, the alienation - you can not underestimate the impact these things have on lives.

But there are so many ways trans people could be accommodated and supported without demeaning and excluding female people from their own spaces. It’s this pernicious ideology that insists the only possible way is total redefinition for everyone of what it is to be a woman or a man, and casts anything other than total capitulation as an act of unjustifiable hatred.

MellieBellie · 14/07/2021 18:20

In the example of male teachers, there are positive advantages to children having maoe role models. Therefore, this is balanced with the risks and safeguarding is put in place to protect children when they are vulnerable. E.g. in bathrooms, on overnight residentials, intimate care.

Your example made me question the ways in which women benefit from males in their spaces? Are there any benefits? If not, the comparison is not valid.

Additionally, safeguarding is in place for children when they are in mixed sex environments. How would you safeguard women at times when they are vulnerable? Single sex spaces act as safeguarding, but that is what you are suggesting we remove.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 14/07/2021 18:20

how do you feel about these patently GNC-shaming sentiments from a "gender critical" forum?

OP, I couldn't see the comments at the link you sent, with a picture of a man wearing a dress. My own reaction to the picture is that I don't care what he wears, as long as he doesn't try to gain access to anything that's meant to be for women.