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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right which one of you left the keys in the internet?

84 replies

Gumbomambo · 10/07/2021 02:31

Who ever did it needs a long hard look in the mirror and to put the bottle down. Crikey I have never seen so many new user names with the same old stick to bring to the woman beating party. Tin hats on ladies.

OP posts:
TedImgoingmad · 10/07/2021 12:44

The Girl Guides one is a classic, that is revisited often. It's a classic fear campaign approach - target children and safeguarding. Trans kids are so concerned about fitting in, and just being kids. The leaders who take kids on camps know all about and are trained in safe guarding. Zero incidents cited. I mean, the thread itself was around someone's daughter thinking there may be a boy in their group. Again - just another fear campaign.

Your long time ago guiding experiences mean absolutely nothing, and unless you are in the movement as a leader, you have no right to comment on the situation leaders are facing.

One more time for the hard of thinking.

Guide leaders - like me - are not allowed to implement normal safeguarding rules while GGUK persist in the fiction that the organisation is single sex. There can be no normal safeguarding segregation between the sexes, when we are meant to operate on the basis that there is only one sex present. There can be no informed consent - asking parents and natal female guides who their daughter/they are comfortable sharing with - when we are not allowed to reveal to anyone that a person of the opposite biological sex is present. We cannot ourselves exercise our judgment in policing sleeping arrangements, so that a trans girl is separated from natal girls, as we are not allowed to treat them differently from a natal girl. We cannot on our own initiative decide that the trans girl is to shower etc separately
because we cannot treat them differently from natal girls.

We are left with a situation where we have to hope that natal girls and their parents use their senses/observations of the other children in the unit to assess the situation at hand, and when we ask them who their child is willing to share a tent with, they can tell us whether or not they want to be in with "Girl X". We can do absolutely nothing about washing facilities, however.

And at some point, "Girl X" might have nobody wanting to share with them, because girls and their parents have worked it out. What then? I mean, I am going to have to pop them in a tent with someone, aren't I? How's that going to work out? "I'm not comfortable sharing with "Girl X"" will only get you the possibility you don't have to share with them, not the certainty, we are supposed to be Sisters To All Guides after all. So at some point, even this informal method of informed consent goes out the window.

I'm so sick of the lies being propagated about this, not to mention being worried sick about it. I did not become a Guide leader to have to play Russian roulette about whether I am putting a girl in danger of a sexual assault.

Helleofabore · 10/07/2021 12:47

I must admit to enjoying the current AIBU though.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4292483-to-NOT-think-womens-rights-are-being-attacked?msgid=108952122#108952122

The poll is as you would expect, overwhelming for those who believe there is a conflict in women’s rights. And the usual posters are STILL declaring it is a extremist minority of transphobes who believe this.

They simply cannot except they are the minority and acting like extremists silencing other women. It really is an illuminating thread.

PurpleHoodie · 10/07/2021 12:51

I'm so sick of the lies being propagated about this, not to mention being worried sick about it. I did not become a Guide leader to have to play Russian roulette about whether I am putting a girl in danger of a sexual assault.

SadFlowers

OldTurtleNewShell · 10/07/2021 12:52

I'm actually enjoying this latest influx of denouncers and admonishers. They're doing an excellent job of showing all the lurkers just how flimsy and horribly sexist their arguments are.
Hopefully, the upcoming 'article' will send even more people our way. Keep up the good work, Monty et al. Much appreciated.

picklemewalnuts · 10/07/2021 13:23

@OldTurtleNewShell

I'm actually enjoying this latest influx of denouncers and admonishers. They're doing an excellent job of showing all the lurkers just how flimsy and horribly sexist their arguments are. Hopefully, the upcoming 'article' will send even more people our way. Keep up the good work, Monty et al. Much appreciated.
They truly are. You read it, sigh, roll your eyes, and wait for the glaringly obvious to be pointed out. Not that they ever learn. Hard of thinking, I suppose. Perhaps all that careful avoiding of the truth damages their critical faculties.
IsItShining · 10/07/2021 13:24

I did not become a Guide leader to have to play Russian roulette about whether I am putting a girl in danger of a sexual assault.

Or indeed of consensual underage sex between a male and female teenager.

Datun · 10/07/2021 13:39

I'm so sick of the lies being propagated about this, not to mention being worried sick about it. I did not become a Guide leader to have to play Russian roulette about whether I am putting a girl in danger of a sexual assault.

Indeed. And we have to remain clear about these policies and what they mean. And you're absolutely right, Russian roulette it is.

And at the same time promoting damaging stereotypes in an organisation that is meant to be uplifting girls, not endangering them, discomforting them or confusing them about what their sex is.

PurpleHoodie · 10/07/2021 13:40

IsItShining

I did not become a Guide leader to have to play Russian roulette about whether I am putting a girl in danger of a sexual assault.

It is not simply just about the sex act.

Girls don't want to undress around boys.

PurpleHoodie · 10/07/2021 13:43

Heck. I am very unprudish; and yet there are many males I do not want to disrobe in front of.

Girls should not have adults (de facto parents) insisting they share bedrooms/changing rooms/tents with boys.

Sonarl · 10/07/2021 13:48

Me too. I enjoy sex and am sexually permissive. And yet I don't want to go to the toilet with my male colleagues. I don't want to touch up my makeup while my male boss is standing next to me or my male date. I don't want to have a miscarriage in the toilets at work when a man could come in at any time. I don't want to escape to the toilet for a breather/cry when it's all getting to much at work/on a date and have the man that was upsetting me follow me in. I don't want a man to get off on watching me go to the toilet. I don't want men to be able to fetishize my menstruation, which to me is just an annoying pain in the arse I have to deal with every month. You're right, it's not only about sex, although, I also don't want to be sexually assaulted in a female toliet, where I should be safe, or anywhere.

Flamglimglubberty · 10/07/2021 13:58

@Helleofabore

I must admit to enjoying the current AIBU though.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4292483-to-NOT-think-womens-rights-are-being-attacked?msgid=108952122#108952122

The poll is as you would expect, overwhelming for those who believe there is a conflict in women’s rights. And the usual posters are STILL declaring it is a extremist minority of transphobes who believe this.

They simply cannot except they are the minority and acting like extremists silencing other women. It really is an illuminating thread.

I actually reported this one, and asked why it was allowed to stand in AIBU instead of being moved to S&G like all GC posts are. The response from MN was just that there's no blanket rule for what gets moved, and upon review this one is allowed to stay where it is.

Seems to be one rule for GC and one rule for TRA. MN clearly want us in the corner, and seem to subscribe to the notion that women should be seen and not heard.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 10/07/2021 14:09

That AIBU is the same old faux naivity.
'I just don't see the issue blah blah, they just want to pee, 'cis' men wouldn't possibly claim a trans identity to access victims.....'

They have nothing else. No logic, factual, coherent argument. Nothing but coercion and emotional blackmail.
The vote speaks volumes.

They genuinely seem to believe that if MN feminists disappeared, everyone in the real world would agree with them.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 10/07/2021 14:12

745 posts later and the OP conveniently never returned. Must've got enough screenshots.

TheFnozwhowasmirage · 10/07/2021 14:19

Yes,I do think that it's odd that,despite this board being hived off so that us nasty wimmin who care about the safety of women and girls don't hurt someone's feelings,should they catch sight of the truth; that certain posters,rather than be pleased about this,make an effort to come on here and try and goad the nasty wimmin. Can't understand it, but they are doing our job for us,so it's all good.

HeddaAga · 10/07/2021 15:03

They know that the issues will only become more high profile with time, surely? The more male born individuals with penises attempt to spend time naked in female spaces and around children, they know that it won't be allowed to slide right? Massive flaw in the plan. This really does seem a waste of everyone's time and effort.

PurpleHoodie · 10/07/2021 15:07

They genuinely seem to believe that if MN feminists disappeared, everyone in the real world would agree with them.

Makes them thick as pig shit if they really believe that.

Leafstamp · 10/07/2021 15:17

@PurpleHoodie

They genuinely seem to believe that if MN feminists disappeared, everyone in the real world would agree with them.

Makes them thick as pig shit if they really believe that.

Well said.
Whatsnewpussyhat · 10/07/2021 15:26

@HeddaAga

They know that the issues will only become more high profile with time, surely? The more male born individuals with penises attempt to spend time naked in female spaces and around children, they know that it won't be allowed to slide right? Massive flaw in the plan. This really does seem a waste of everyone's time and effort.
Which is why they attempt to change legislation and policies before everyone wakes up to what is truly happening, and why they need male crimes being recorded and reported as being committed by women.

Much harder to reverse bad laws than prevent them, especially when females are no longer permitted to advocate solely for themselves as a separate sex and political class to males or even speak against their oppressors.

PurpleHoodie · 10/07/2021 15:28

Which is why they attempt to change legislation and policies before everyone wakes up to what is truly happening, and why they need male crimes being recorded and reported as being committed by women.

Yes.

Keep digging Daffodil if you can.

Keep complaining to your MPs/SMPs.

Keep supporting those going to court.

Blibbyblobby · 10/07/2021 15:30

@Mibbiesaye

As a lurker, it has been very eye-opening. I have yet to see an actual argument or discussion from any of them. It is very noticeable that they are unwilling or unable to engage with the content and instead only post a derail or insult.
That's because they are coming from echo chambers where actual GC voices are not welcome. So what they understand as the GC position is actually the misrepresentations made those who want to dismiss the GC position as bigotry.

So we get a steady stream of passionate and probably genuinely well-meaning believers who think "well that's just obviously wrong but I'm sure if someone just takes the time to explain things clearly those TERFs will see the error of their ways", and so in the time-honoured missionary tradition they come over from their echo chambers to explain it to us.

At which point we say "yes, that is indeed obviously wrong, but that's not what we are saying. What we are actually saying is this, and this is why we are critical of gender ideology, and here is the evidence for our position, and here is the total lack of evidence for the things you believe in, and would you like to engage with the real GC debate and not this cartoon TERF you seem to have in your head?"

Some think about it properly and engage but most just slink away with their tail between their legs.

After a while, the slinkers forget the actual content of the GC argument and just remember they felt discomfort and anger at being called out, so they rationalise it to themselves that we are nasty people who make them feel bad.

And so it goes round again.

Blibbyblobby · 10/07/2021 15:54

@PurpleHoodie

IsItShining

I did not become a Guide leader to have to play Russian roulette about whether I am putting a girl in danger of a sexual assault.

It is not simply just about the sex act.

Girls don't want to undress around boys.

Honestly, I'm more than happy to work towards a world where bodies are just neutral and no one has any discomfort about stripping off in front of the opposite sex because all the nasty male sexual treatment of females (porn, voyeurism, pressure to engage in sex etc) has stopped happening.

But we won't get there by pretending it doesn't happen and throwing female people into mixed sex environments anyway.

TRAs want the process to be:

  1. pretend there are no differences in how the sexes treat each other and that childbirth, childcare and other family caring impact the sexes equally
  2. remove all boundaries between the sexes
  3. magic happens and everything is ok

But in the real world the process has to be:

  1. agree as a culture we want to truly free female people from male oppression
  2. work really hard to get rid of differences in how the sexes treat each other and to ensure that childbirth, childcare and other family caring impact the sexes equally
  3. monitor key indicator statistics to assess whether female people are still at risk from male and whether female and males share equal responsibility for family care
  4. once females are no longer structurally and culturally disadvantaged, remove all boundaries between the sexes other than the ones that are necessary to maintain the balance of advantage
  5. everything is ok
  6. keep monitoring to make sure things continue to be ok
PurpleHoodie · 10/07/2021 15:58

Never going to happen, unfortunately.

Because male violence.

Egged on by other men, and enforced by other women and men.

Blibbyblobby · 10/07/2021 16:15

@PurpleHoodie

Never going to happen, unfortunately.

Because male violence.

Egged on by other men, and enforced by other women and men.

Maybe. But whether it's possible or not, we have to articulate it so it's there in the open to counter the TRA's magical thinking. Otherwise it's too easy for them to characterise us as prudes who think males and females can never be together without a sexual element. It's the difference between "we can't because" and "we could if". They both make the real world problems visible but the second is harder to dismiss as "you just don't want to change".
Blibbyblobby · 10/07/2021 16:17

(And steps 1,2 and 3 seem like a damn good thing to put effort into anyway)

PurpleHoodie · 10/07/2021 16:21

Maybe. But whether it's possible or not, we have to articulate it so it's there in the open to counter the TRA's magical thinking.

Yes.

In the real world, people are becoming very hardened to TRAs. Their #nodebate/do political deals in secret/unicorn/#BeKind bollocks, has been exposed.

Thank goodness grassroot groups are springing up (much to TRAs chagrin) to counteract their tailcoat activities.

Eg

LGB Alliance

Sex Matters

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