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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Webberley

978 replies

Signalbox · 05/07/2021 11:59

Looks like Helem Webberley's substantive case has finally been listed for 26th July 2021

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-helen-webberley-jul-21

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Signalbox · 16/08/2021 09:59

"DisgustedofManchester: Read your own links, they are asking for breaks when their case starts becoming a farce. During the break they can discuss things with the legal team. They even are showing the witnesses new information during the evidence breaks. Its there in the tweet report."

You are plainly wrong...

Here is the MPTS own guidance on giving evidence and being under oath...

Breaks in the hearing

The hearing will adjourn (break) from time to time. This can be for things like comfort breaks or lunch, or at the end of each day if the hearing lasts more than one day.

It can also break if you feel that you need a break from giving evidence. If that is the case, just let us know.

Please remember: you must not talk to anyone about the case or about your evidence during any breaks. This includes anyone involved with the case, as well as your friends or family.

If you do speak to others, it could have a serious effect on the outcome of the hearing.

www.mpts-uk.org/witnesses/witness-guide-to-hearings/giving-evidence

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/08/2021 14:53

Is anyone blogging on this trial anywhere? I'm finding it quite hard going reading the tweets and it'd be useful if someone who understood the procedures and jargon could translate - I can barely keep who is representing who straight Blush

Signalbox · 16/08/2021 15:53

Briefly

Helen Webberley's representative is Mr Ian Stern QC
GMC's representative is Mr Simon Jackson QC

There was a lot of discussion this morning about the order of witnesses. It is important for some witnesses to be heard before others.

Today Dr Klink has been giving evidence. He can only give evidence today and tomorrow and there are concerns that this may not be long enough to complete the evidence so solutions discussed before evidence started. Also his evidence was only received by the defence on 13th August and they are asking for a delay.

Dr Klink is one of the GMC’s witnesses. I think he is one of their expert witnesses because the tweets mention his “report” being “his opinion of the concept of providing care as part of a multi-disciplinary team (MDT)”. Dr Klink is a Paediatric endocrinologist from Amsterdam Uni Medical Centre, Dept of Paediatrics.

Simon Jackson (SJ) (GDC) questions Dr Klink first…

Dr Klink sees patients from age 10 to early adulthood. The younger the patient the more a MD approach is required. And MDT would comprise mental healthcare, endocrinology, surgeons, physical therapists and speech therapists.

Dr K says that providers of gender affirming healthcare should be well qualified. From the tweets it looks like he is saying that to make an assessment that will lead to hormone treatment a clinician should be a paediatrician with 2 years additional training to become an endocrinology specialist. Dr Klink doesn’t think it is appropriate for one doctor to fulfil the role of the whole MDT. One person cannot be qualified to do this all by themselves.

He is asked about the assessment process and what this entails and what should be recorded. He is asked about irreversible changes.

He is asked about the appropriate ages for starting hormone treatments. He says generally 16 but in rare cases 15. These patients will have been patients at his clinic for several years. He says that there is not a lot of evidence to go on in this area so every centre has to rely on their own clinical experience.

He says in Amsterdam patients must have been seen at an early age in his clinic and have been on PB for at least 3 years and have received counselling on fertility and other surgical issues before being considered for HT.

He said guidance on this is not fully tested on adolescents so there is not a lot of data on how transgender patients will react to the drugs. Because it is so unknown it should be monitored by paediatric endocrinologists. You need a lot of knowledge of puberty to do this

Dr Klink is asked why he thinks age 12 is too young (HW prescribed testosterone to a patient aged 12). He says because of capacity to consent is more likely around age 15.

Dr Klink is asked about HW’s interaction with the MDT and an endocrinologist in view effects that these drugs can have (on bones, growth, sexual maturation etc.) Dr K says he cannot see from the notes that there was any communication between HW and the MDT or an endocrinologist.

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Signalbox · 16/08/2021 16:01

Next up… Ian Stern QC (rep for HW) is going to cross examining Dr Klink.

The cross examination starts here. This cross examination will continue for the rest of today and I imagine (from the discussions earlier) all of tomorrow.

twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1427277419292073988

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Doomscrolling · 16/08/2021 16:25

Thanks so much for keeping us up to date, @Signalbox. It’s been invaluable.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/08/2021 16:38

Thanks @Signalbox that's really helpful and much easier than wading through the tweets.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/08/2021 17:35

Actually, some of the tweets are quite interesting...

Dr K: I think what you're saying is that there is an allowance to provide bridging prescriptions in the case of concern of harm or suicide?
IS: Yes
IS: Have you seen the guidance from 2016?
Dr K: I'm not sure.
IS: What do you do if you have an adolescent in that position?
Dr K: It's a different situation with adolescents. We get a lot of requests from parents saying their child is suicidal and they want hormones therapy. we say no, go and see a psychologist. Being suicidal is not a reason to start hormones.
IS: I'm sure you don't mean if a parent comes to you saying their child is suicidal, you wouldn't say no go see a psychologist?
Dr K: No, I don't feel comfortable discussing suicidal thoughts in adolescents. I'd say you need to speak to a psychiatrist but it would be more nuanced
Dr K: I don't feel comfortable discussing this as it's in psychiatric field. I think for layman its very shocking to hear young people are coming with suicidal thoughts and we aren't treating them. If you go to a psychiatrist and they will be able to give you a comment on this.

Signalbox · 16/08/2021 17:47

Dr K: It's a different situation with adolescents. We get a lot of requests from parents saying their child is suicidal and they want hormones therapy. we say no, go and see a psychologist. Being suicidal is not a reason to start hormones

It's good to hear someone so eminently qualified and involved in treating trans people say this. Listening to Trans advocacy groups in the UK and you would think that hormone therapy is the most important treatment for the suicidal "trans" child.

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Signalbox · 16/08/2021 18:33

[quote Signalbox]Next up… Ian Stern QC (rep for HW) is going to cross examining Dr Klink.

The cross examination starts here. This cross examination will continue for the rest of today and I imagine (from the discussions earlier) all of tomorrow.

twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1427277419292073988[/quote]
Brief summary of this afternoon’s cross-examination of Dr Klink by Ian Stern QC (HW rep)

IS questions Dr K about his experience. Seems he is a similar level to Dr Butler (UK consultant level). Dr K has never worked in the UK or registered with the GMC.

Discussion about WPATH guidance. IS asks if the guidance is a consensus rather than evidence based. Dr K agrees it is consensus based.

Dr K is asked about private clinics in Netherlands that treat TG people. He says there are pvt clinics for adults.

IS refers to a document about GPs treating gender variant conditions. IS states that GPs can initiate treatment if the service user prefers. Dr K says there is a big difference in applying this to children. i.e. it’s fair enough with adults but not appropriate for children. With children having the input of an endocrinologist is essential.

IS queries if Dr K is applying the “gold standard” as opposed to what happens on a day-to-day basis, and Dr K replies that “it depends on the level of collateral damage society is willing to accept for treating children”. Presumably he is implying that clinicians should be using the gold standard because the potential harm when things go wrong is serious. Dr K says that it is not enough to provide an “adequate” level of care.

IS again puts the idea that GPs can treat (reads again from the GP guidance document) Dr K emphasises that treating adults and children is a completely different skillset.

There is some discussion about who should be assessing and diagnosing and evaluating (in relation to mental health) but it’s not quite clear to me who is asking and who is answering.

IS asks about whether children should have to go through natural puberty because they will have to have surgery if this happens and they still want to “change sex”. IS suggests that puberty blockers will prevent children developing secondary sex characteristics. BUT he is still reading from an NHS document about TG adults. Dr K asks why he is being asked to comment on what this document says about prescribing hormones to adults.

Dr K reminds IS that consent is an ongoing process and not just the signing of a form.

Discussion around the importance of physical examinations (genital and pelvic) in children. Dr K says examinations are essential in young patients and just asking the patient isn’t acceptable.

Dr K says you “can’t just agree with adolescents. You have to clinically evaluate them as they can exaggerate to get their treatment intensified to get the results they desire. You need a baseline for adolescents”.

Prescribing hormones must be consistent. It is a very delicate process and takes skill to do so.
Discussion around suicide: IS refers to hormones as a “life-saving treatment”. Dr K says hormones not always the answer. Dr K doesn’t see suicidal thoughts as a basis for offering hormone treatment. He says he is shocked that this would happen in the UK.

END OF DAY

Cross examination of Dr Klink will continue tomorrow at 9am

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Tisha0 · 16/08/2021 23:42

@Signalbox - that summary makes for eye-opening reading! Seems like a good witness, giving excellent answers. Thanks for the summary.

ThinkWittyThoughts · 17/08/2021 08:50

Thank you signalbox for posting links and summarising.

I thought Dr K did well at seeing traps and refusing to step in them. IS seems to be taking an odd approach, by insisting on applying adult guidance to the treatment of children. Perhaps the nuance is lost in the tweets but it comes across as wilfully ignorant.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/08/2021 09:44

IS seems to be taking an odd approach, by insisting on applying adult guidance to the treatment of children.

IS is in the unfortunate position of trying to defend the indefensible.

Signalbox · 17/08/2021 10:04

IS is in the unfortunate position of trying to defend the indefensible.

Yes. He’s not got much to work with has he!

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oxalisRed · 17/08/2021 12:29

Thank you for the thread and for summarising Signalbox Flowers

Signalbox · 17/08/2021 15:03

Brief summary of morning session 17th August. (It’s been hard to follow today. It’s all a bit dry and repetative) I have been reading the @mpts_hearing tweets as well as @tribunal tweets to try and get a sense of what’s going on.

Cross-examination (by Ian Stern QC) of Dr Klink continued

Ian Stern is HW representative.

Dr Klink is one of the GDC’s expert witnesses. He is a paediatric endocrinologist from Amsterdam University Medical Centre, Dept of Paediatrics.

Discussion around Endocrine Soc guidelines (2009) in relation to treatment decisions, evidence, lack of evidence and who can use the guidelines and whether or not they are up to date in relation to prescribing hormones. Low quality evidence available at the time.

There is an ongoing debate about when to start treatment and whether or not it’s OK to start before age 16. There is limited evidence in the 13 to 16 year old cohort but there is anecdotal reports of good feedback. Dr K says care needs to be taken because no data available and these are vulnerable children and adolescents.

IS suggests that Puberty can be unbearable and clinicians treat with PBs to relieve these feelings and leads to better outcomes. IS suggests a full puberty can lead to emotional and social difficulties.IS suggests that blockers are a “neutral” act. Dr K says that not being on par with your peers can cause problems.

IS asks about evidence in relation to MDTs and whether there is evidence to show this is a better approach. Dr K says there is no evidence and that its unlikely that we will ever get the evidence as no research is being carried out [gosh I wonder why that might be]

Discussion around WPATH guidelines and standards of care. Guidelines say they are “flexible… in order to meet diverse needs of trans people”

IS asks about mental health and suggests that the mental health difficulties that trans people experience is related to their GD. Dr K says that 30% with gender dysphoria have a co-existing condition which may or may not impede or cause barriers for successful transition. Dr K says that 30% have conditions that should be looked at before transition. Need to remove stigma.

Dr K asked about blockers and what age his hospital treats patients with blockers. Answer is Age 9. Dr K is asked about concerns in relation to blockers and bone density. He says there is less concern than there used to be but still contentious and should be monitored. Pt A was put on blockers at 11 and would have been on them for 5 years under the NHS.

More discussion about who should provide treatment (mental health professionals or other clinicians) Dr K stresses the importance of an MDT.

Discussion around the “informed consent model” in WPATH. Dr K says that the informed consent model wouldn’t work for a 12 year old.

IS says WPATH states that it is acceptable for a trained / experienced primary care provider to prescribe hormones.

There is a discussion around the difference between treating adults and treating children. It seems that WPATH and another document from 2011 are (in Dr K’s opinion) for treating adults. The difference being that a primary care provider can treat an adult with no MDT and with informed consent (no need for psychological intervention). Dr K says it’s OK for adults but not children. IS seems determined that adults and children could be treated the same and that the guidelines cover both adults and children. Dr K disagrees.

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highame · 17/08/2021 16:40

Fantastic Signalbox. Dr K's disagreement, will be difficult to refute.

Signalbox · 17/08/2021 17:34

@highame

Fantastic Signalbox. Dr K's disagreement, will be difficult to refute.
Give it time. I imagine that when the defence call their witnesses they will have their own endocrinologist expert witness who will say the exact opposite and imply that Dr K's approach is out of date.
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Fallingirl · 17/08/2021 19:43

If it’s all going to be decided on the basis of what WPATH claims, Webberley may win. WPATH these days is primarily made up of representatives of the pharmaceutical industry and for-profit gender clinics.

PermanentTemporary · 17/08/2021 20:43

It's encouraging to hear that bone density concerns are reducing.

OldCrone · 17/08/2021 21:26

@PermanentTemporary

It's encouraging to hear that bone density concerns are reducing.
I don't think that's true, is it?

AFAIK the current position is that there are concerns that bone density might be affected by puberty blockers, but it's impossible to know for certain what the effects are because nobody is collecting the data.

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/GnRHa&bonedensity.pdf

Signalbox · 18/08/2021 12:38

I don't think that's true, is it?

I wonder if all these doctors have their heads in the sand. Dr K may be more cautious than Webberley and WPATH but he's still prescribing puberty blockers to children as young as 9. Must be wishful thinking that they do no harm.

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OldCrone · 18/08/2021 15:17

Dr Klink has done research into the effects of puberty blockers on bone health in adolescents.

This is from 2017.

Effect of pubertal suppression and cross-sex hormone therapy on bone turnover markers and bone mineral apparent density (BMAD) in transgender adolescents

The observed decrease in BMAD Z-scores in our study was expected. Normally, bone mass accumulates under the influence of sex steroids during puberty. However, in our study sex steroid deprivation due to GnRHa treatment results in stable bone mass, which implies a loss of Z-scores in transgender adolescents compared to their peers.

I couldn't find anything more recent which indicates that this is no longer thought to be true.

Signalbox · 18/08/2021 16:18

There are no witnesses today (18th) but here is a brief summary of 17th afternoon session.

IS (HW rep) continues cross examination of Dr Klink (GMC’s expert witness)

Discussion around waiting times in the NHS clinics and a 2015 report on waiting times with view to cutting waiting lists. Data was hard to come by in most of the clinics. Different clinics have different ways of working. In some Physiatrist consultants can prescribe hormones. In another clinic MDTs are only used for high-risk patients. So within the NHS MDTs for adults is not always the approach used.

IS mentions WPATH and the flexible pathway that it recommends. Dr K says it’s “primarily for a U.S. audience”.

Discussion of Various guidelines…

Guidelines of University Calf, SF aimed at primary care givers to give them the knowledge and awareness to treat GD patients. Designed for use in primary care. Complement existing WPATH and endocrine guidelines. These guidelines state that genital examinations are unnecessary and should only be carried out when relevant (this is for adults but there is also a section on children). Chapter 35 (adolescents and children) Guidelines say that treatment of children doesn’t need to be limited to paediatric endocrinologists, primary care providers can prescribe for adolescents. IS asks if Dr K agrees. Dr K says in certain circumstances he does but not fully. He says again America is different but doesn’t seem to be asked why.

IS asks Dr K if he thinks early treatment as life-saving. Dr K say he agrees.

IS asks about those under 16 with compelling reasons… can they be prescribed cross sex hormones? Dr K says yes but they would need a mental health assessment

Discussion of GMC guidance 2016. This guidance says that if patients are self-medicating (or likely to self-medicate) due to clinic waiting times Doctors can prescribe as a harm reduction approach. IS asks Dr K if this document alters his view in light of the fact that this guidance was available in 2016. Dr K says “bridging prescriptions are for people already in the system. Dr K says that if your child was nearing puberty and you don’t want to wait for an appointment because the waiting list is 2 years and you find a way to put them on blockers, this is considered to be neutral but it is not neutral. Blockers may affect fertility or may have implications for future surgery (for males). Dr K says bridging prescriptions do not really exist in paediatrics. IS asks why Dr K’s view is different from the GMC guidance. Dr K says guidance is not for children.

IS asks about blocking pubertal development. States that analogs are “fully reversible”. Asks Dr K “are you saying that you don’t believe that they are fully reversible?” Dr K says it’s not entirely neutral and that the intervention itself is not fully reversible. IS states that all UK protocols describe it as fully reversible and asks Dr K to clarify. Dr K says it leaves a footprint on you, the experience cannot be erased, it’s easy to start a path but hard to stop it, it has implications for fertility. (it’s a bit confusing at this point. Dr K seems to be saying that it is fully reversible “somatically” but the process is hard to stop once started and you still need to make an assessment of the body prior to starting.) Dr K says once you start blockers it’s hard for you to deviate, it can be hard for you to produce offspring. Analogs are not considered bridging without a proper assessment.

Other papers discussed but not in great detail one from Dr Olson Kennedy (concluding that gender affirming hormones are safe to use in 12 to 23 year-olds). Dr K again remarks that it is different in America as you can start younger (I wish someone would ask him why!) and one from Dr Wiley (in relation to primary care providers) and one from Dr K (in relation to care being interdisciplinary).

End of session. Dr K will continue giving evidence on 24th and 25th Aug.

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NecessaryScene · 18/08/2021 16:33

(it’s a bit confusing at this point. Dr K seems to be saying that it is fully reversible “somatically” but the process is hard to stop once started and you still need to make an assessment of the body prior to starting.)

This has been discussed a few times in FWR before. "Reversible" is a technical term meaning that the direct effect of the drug is not permanent. In this case the direct effect is to block various hormones. When you stop taking the drug, the hormones are unblocked. It is that hormone blocking that is reversible - systems resume operation.

But the effect of having had hormones blocked during your teenage growth period is not reversible. It's affected your growth, permanently because some of those hormones had work to do at a crucial growth stage.

It sounds like K summarised that quite well - the GnRH analogues are reversible. The intervention is not.

Signalbox · 18/08/2021 17:01

Thanks necessary

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