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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Webberley

978 replies

Signalbox · 05/07/2021 11:59

Looks like Helem Webberley's substantive case has finally been listed for 26th July 2021

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-helen-webberley-jul-21

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/07/2021 20:35

Well, in the case of one 'pathway adviser', the qualifications and experience shown on LinkedIn are:

GCSEs and A levels - no mention of higher education of any kind
Level 1 Award in Community Sports Leadership
RAF cadet civilian instructor
4.5 years as a croupier
5 years managing a travel money bureau
Active in Green Party politics, including most recently being Co-Chair of the Green Party Women

I imagine what swung it for this person to get the job with Gender GP is being a transwoman. I'm not clear what pathway adviser means. First point of contact?

R0wantrees · 28/07/2021 20:45

What qualifications do their salesmen counsellors have?

Marianne Oakes
(BACP and Pink Therapy qualifications)

"As a fully qualified counsellor, with a post grad diploma in Gender Sexuality and Diverse Relationships, Marianne is our most experienced counsellor in the field of transgender care. She heads up our team of specialist gender counsellors at GenderGP. Marianne combines her own experiences as a trans woman with her affinity for others going through their own gender journey. She came into this particular branch of therapy after struggling to find someone who could support her with her own transition. Marianne brings a unique insight to her practice, both from her own first hand experiences and her understanding of the impact which transition can have on families and loved ones. She enjoys working with people of all ages, including children and their families, creating a non-judgmental space in which parents can talk openly about their own issues in relation to their child’s transition"
www.gendergp.com/meet-the-team/

"July 2018: My trans journey to date
In September 2015 I visited my GP to ask for a referral to the Sheffield GIC and, despite his ignorance to the protocols, a week later my referral had been submitted. This was three months after I had qualified as a therapeutic counsellor, with a view to realising my dream of working as a female therapist.

In January 2016, I set up a private practice and advertised my services in Pink therapy. Low and behold, a month later this eager woman called me to ask if I would be interested in helping her with trans clients. Delighted, I accepted. This turned out to be my first experience of GenderGP and the wonderful Dr Helen Webberley. I will admit now, having heard the horror stories of endless waiting lists on the NHS, that I did consider my private options. It was clear that I would have been a suitable candidate for accessing the services of GenderGP, however, I was concerned there might be a conflict of interest. Keen to keep my focus and do my work to the best of my ability I decided to stick with Plan A. Some 14 months after my referral I was offered my first appointment at Sheffield. I put on my best dress and did my hair and off I went. It was December 2016. I told them my story and it was explained to me that I would have another three appointments within a six month period. At that point I would be put forward for treatment. It was an exciting time and I was happy to wait. My initial appointments went well, I thought, and I was on track for receiving the treatment I so craved. But nothing came. No letter, no appointment. Nothing. Two years passed. Then a letter arrived, it was an appointment with the voice coach. I was delighted and waiting with bated breath for more news. Maybe treatment would be quick to follow. It wasn’t. By October (some two years after my initial referral) I faltered and approached Dr Webberley for help. I needed hormones and the situation was becoming increasingly frustrating. I was living and working as the woman I have always known I was, but wasn’t able to access the treatment I needed to feel complete. I spoke to my voice coach and she did a little digging. According to my records, she said, I should have received a letter two months earlier detailing my treatment pathway. Needless to say I never received the letter. Luckily, she managed to get a copy sent to me. Back on track with the NHS, I put GenderGP on hold. As a counsellor, specialising in the treatment of gender variant patients, this insight into the experiences of those seeking treatment via the NHS was proving invaluable" (continues)
www.gendergp.com/my-story-marianne-oakes/

FannyCann · 28/07/2021 20:49

@Signalbox

I'm not sure how you would be able to prove lack of consent

I think that's a fairly straightforward matter of record keeping or more to the point no records = no consent.

Happy to be corrected

merrymouse · 28/07/2021 20:58

Thanks rowan. Nothing in that CV suggests any ability to treat somebody with complex problems, particularly when ‘treatment’ involves supplying controlled drugs to 15 year old girls that will have a permanent, possibly life limiting effect.

Signalbox · 28/07/2021 21:11

[quote FannyCann]@Signalbox

I'm not sure how you would be able to prove lack of consent

I think that's a fairly straightforward matter of record keeping or more to the point no records = no consent.

Happy to be corrected [/quote]
No record of consent only really proves that no record was taken of the consent process. The GMC have to prove their case and in a situation where there is no patient evidence HW's defence is likely to be that she did gain consent from the patient but that she didn't write it down. This is obviously still a failure in record keeping but much less serious than a failure to gain consent from a patient.

It'll be why the allegations are worded so if the committee find that HW did assess patients A/B's capacity to consent, they can still find (in the alternative) a failure to record.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 28/07/2021 21:12

From the process link.

we do not believe that ‘compulsory’ counselling or psychotherapy is of benefit to anybody. We certainly do not believe in putting people through lengthy assessments in order to validate their gender.

Outhere · 28/07/2021 21:13

She could absolutely just be a grifter, but when I listen to her speak, she is absolutely and resolutely entrenched in her beliefs. There's a rigidity there, which was picked up in previous hearings, where she is totally unwilling to self reflect or question her practice or beliefs. And that is how people become dangerous practitioners, not just in a medical field. It could be because she's just thinking of the money, and she could be a talented actor, but that's an impressive performance to maintain for a prolonged period of time. I also wonder whether there's an element of self preservation going on, she wouldn't be the first to maintain their position because any wavering from that position would mean admitting that they'd participated in terrible acts.

Regardless of motivation, in her podcast about the tribunal she frequently asserts that she knows 'it may not go my way'. She knows it, so she'll use the opportunity to continue to promote her thinking and drag the Tavi and co through the mud as she goes. Which, of course, will send more customers her way. I'm hoping the awareness that the Baroness is trying to raise around the prescribing loopholes gets some traction because whatever the result of this tribunal, GenderGP will keep on, with HW as their 'advocate'... whatever that means.

dyslek · 28/07/2021 21:17

I think it means she gets to keep cashing the checks.

merrymouse · 28/07/2021 21:17

Looking at the website links and thinking about the Tavistock case and Telegraph report, Gender GP, with which HW is still closely linked, doesn’t seem to have a policy of obtaining proper consent or evaluating previous medical history now.

Will this be part of the case or will it only relate to specific historical cases?

Signalbox · 28/07/2021 21:54

Allegations 24 to 27 appear to relate to Gender GP and HW’s relationship to that company and the company’s “efforts to avoid the regulatory framework of the UK”.

OP posts:
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 28/07/2021 22:24

So, from what you posted R0, Marianne Oakes had less than a year's experience after qualifying before going into private practice?

That's bold.

There is far more about Marianne's wardrobe and grooming in that CV than of Marianne's actual clinical expertise or qualifications - which seems unusual on a professional page.

OhHolyJesus · 28/07/2021 22:57

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Well, in the case of one 'pathway adviser', the qualifications and experience shown on LinkedIn are:

GCSEs and A levels - no mention of higher education of any kind
Level 1 Award in Community Sports Leadership
RAF cadet civilian instructor
4.5 years as a croupier
5 years managing a travel money bureau
Active in Green Party politics, including most recently being Co-Chair of the Green Party Women

I imagine what swung it for this person to get the job with Gender GP is being a transwoman. I'm not clear what pathway adviser means. First point of contact?

I got a bit stuck on 4.5 years as a croupier...

But I believe you are right in thinking the role would be first point of contact or certainly early on in the process.

My understanding is it's £25 per half hour by phone/Zoom etc.

These would be one on one conversations with vulnerable children and adults.

So...croupier huh...really?

FloralBunting · 28/07/2021 23:47

I've got a certificate from primary school for 'Throws - 5 metres'. Shall I put it on a CV and get a job as their go-to endocrinologist adviser? I have google on my phone to help.

FannyCann · 28/07/2021 23:59

No record of consent only really proves that no record was taken of the consent process. The GMC have to prove their case and in a situation where there is no patient evidence HW's defence is likely to be that she did gain consent from the patient but that she didn't write it down.

Not to labour the point, and I haven't had the chance to catch up on all the proceedings today, but I really don't think it's for the GMC to prove that she didn't gain consent. It's for her to prove that she did. I'm pretty sure that the underlying principle of record keeping is that if there isn't a record it didn't happen.
After all, why would one go to the trouble of obtaining consent and not record that one has done so?
Also applies to anything else one might expect to make a record of, from basic TPR/NEWS obs, to Falls assessments to drugs administration.
Consent is a massive deal for litigation, not having explained possible complications etc. I listened to a presentation from our hospital legal person only recently where this was stressed. The expected standard has changed recently and crucially the standard has been implemented retrospectively, I'm going to have to try to find five minutes to listen to the key part again to refresh my memory, I think iirc the key part was that instead of the standard being what most medical colleagues would expect, it has changed to what most non medical (patients) would understand.
I'll try to find it and check my facts tomorrow.

AfternoonToffee · 29/07/2021 00:01

Even Frank Spencer could be made to look good on there. 25 yard breaststroke among many of his achievements.

(Some mother's do 'ave 'em)

Bosky · 29/07/2021 03:02

@FannyCann

No record of consent only really proves that no record was taken of the consent process. The GMC have to prove their case and in a situation where there is no patient evidence HW's defence is likely to be that she did gain consent from the patient but that she didn't write it down.

Not to labour the point, and I haven't had the chance to catch up on all the proceedings today, but I really don't think it's for the GMC to prove that she didn't gain consent. It's for her to prove that she did. I'm pretty sure that the underlying principle of record keeping is that if there isn't a record it didn't happen.
After all, why would one go to the trouble of obtaining consent and not record that one has done so?
Also applies to anything else one might expect to make a record of, from basic TPR/NEWS obs, to Falls assessments to drugs administration.
Consent is a massive deal for litigation, not having explained possible complications etc. I listened to a presentation from our hospital legal person only recently where this was stressed. The expected standard has changed recently and crucially the standard has been implemented retrospectively, I'm going to have to try to find five minutes to listen to the key part again to refresh my memory, I think iirc the key part was that instead of the standard being what most medical colleagues would expect, it has changed to what most non medical (patients) would understand.
I'll try to find it and check my facts tomorrow.

I agree with FannyCann, it is up to the practitioner to prove that they obtained Informed Consent.

This is based on over 30 yrs working in the NHS, having had similar training on the legal aspects of informed consent, duty of care and record keeping and having been involved in systematic audit of health care records.

No contemporaneous written record = it didn't happen.

Caveat: maybe the patient would swear on oath that it did happen and could provide proof, eg. a copy of the information supplied at the time and perhaps this would be accepted in lieu of a contemporaneous signed or initialed record?

Sophoclesthefox · 29/07/2021 06:56

I’d just like to give a shout out to all of the parents and family of potential customers of gender GP, or potential customers themselves who may be lurking here or who may have found their way here from Google at some point.

Ask yourself why people are continuing to defend shoddy practices, ethical breaches and mendacity from Webberley and people like her. How have you come to believe that there is such urgency to procure for children and vulnerable, unhappy people one particular course of treatment that it is reasonable and rational to bypass and disregard all normal standards of safety and ethics? How have you been persuaded to leap to the defence of someone whom it has already been proven cannot be trusted to adhere to the normal standards of her profession?

Me, I think you should demand better. I think you should hold the experts to a meticulously high standard of care, when they have your children’s future wellbeing, fertility and sexual function in their hands. I’d be demanding the absolute top standard of evidence based medicine, delivered by competent, ethical practitioners. If we continue to hold the line that “any care, even bad care, is better than no care”, people will be damaged.

Leafstamp · 29/07/2021 06:59

Very valid and helpful shout out Sophocles

WarriorN · 29/07/2021 06:59

I'd have thought gaining written consent is safeguarding 101. At the very least to protect yourself. Not putting yourself in a situation where you could be accused of something is a safeguarding basic.

Which demonstrates wider lack of understanding about safeguarding.

with a view to realising my dream of working as a female therapist.

Choked on my tea there.

This is a male born trans woman who had an aim to counsel only women? Vulnerable women seeking counselling?

WarriorN · 29/07/2021 07:00

Is that the former croupier who celebrated on twitter the defeat of sex based rights in the Green Party?

WarriorN · 29/07/2021 07:02

Well said Sophocles

Leafstamp · 29/07/2021 07:03

I’m pretty sure that the underlying principle of record keeping is that if there isn't a record it didn't happen.

Yes Fanny - if HW has no record of obtaining consent (or any other part of the process for that matter), then tough luck, it is assumed not have happened.

Paperwork and audit trail is everything these days. In every setting from factories to schools, so definitely the case in medicine!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 29/07/2021 07:08

Yes, the very same, Warrior. The one who is now sole Chair of Green Party Women while the other one is suspended, and who found that uppity women wouldn't stop talking about transexclusionary things like female biology, IIRC, so changed the settings on the discussion forum so that only the ex-croupier can post and the uppity women just get to read what the ex-croupier deems important for them to know.

WarriorN · 29/07/2021 07:17

See also, Andrew Wakefield.

Indeed. Where the fuck are Deer, Goldachre et al now?