Ms, Mrs, Mr

[Keepitonthedownlow]

Why don't we just put these in email signatures? Is it not the same as pronouns? Why is this considered old fashioned, and the other progressive?

@NiceGerbil

It is a thing though.

There've been loads of threads over the years about female titles and it always comes up. I have heard (women) say it in real life as well.

Often a few years ago but not decades.

Like the PP, with more official stuff, an insistence on a previous surname/s if they use Ms on the basis they must be divorced.

It's I suppose too tricky to understand that women might have a title option that doesn't inform whether she is available or not.

I can genuinely say, if I ever see Ms I think they are private women and don’t necessarily want people to know their marital status.

I know it can mean divorced but I’m surprised it’s an actual assumption that they are divorced in this day and age …

Thanks NiceGerbil your experience is similar to mine.

The thing that irritates me is that, in RL and seeing threads on here is that women are so often called completely the wrong title and name.

Some women really don't like this.

Many say things like.
It is your name. It's you who are out of step.
It's traditional.
It's trivial.
Why make a fuss.
Etc

Things like.
Women who are not married but in a couple being called Mrs husband surname automatically. Even if it's a org that have her correct name.
Drs (medical) being changed to Mrs.
Relatives insisting on using eg Mrs husband initial husband surname even though they know she hates it
Or using Mrs Husband surname to make s point that she's not married.
My friends who aren't married but have kids often get called Mrs husband name by the school even though all forms are filled in with miss/ms her name her surname.

And loads of stories going back s few years with loads and loads of situations where s woman applied for a joint mortgage, joint bank account, signed up for s service etc and the stuff came with his name first.
Some services they won't talk to you unless you're first named so it's a pita and just really sexist.

I hope that happens less now.

Anyway many women have for years got called the wrong name at various times and told not to make a fuss.

Contrast that with another group who wants to change names.

I actually find it really rude & unprofessional to receive a letter where the person signs

e.g. Mary Smith.

I don't know Mary Smith & I will not reply to her using her first name.
She also doesn't have the right to use my first name & I find it patronising & offensive to have a business/official address me so casually.
We are not friends & we are not on a first name basis.
I'll reply to her as Miss Smith because just writing Smith seems a bit harsh.

That would be a good time to use Ms. As you don't know.

When you meet people at work do you say Mrs brown? You don't know them. I understand that's how you feel but it's a very old fashioned view.

In the meeting we have Sarah from New York, Dave from Germany, penny from Canada and miss Jones from X.

Why is your first name intimate/ personal?

I really don't understand. Have you always felt this way or did it start at a certain age? I'm really interested because it's pretty unusual!

@Snugglepumpkin

I actually find it really rude & unprofessional to receive a letter where the person signs

e.g. Mary Smith.

I don't know Mary Smith & I will not reply to her using her first name.
She also doesn't have the right to use my first name & I find it patronising & offensive to have a business/official address me so casually.
We are not friends & we are not on a first name basis.
I'll reply to her as Miss Smith because just writing Smith seems a bit harsh.

I though people always signed with their full name? I mean, you don't see men signing things Mr Smith, at least never in my experience, so how is Mary Smith supposed to sign off?

Nicegerbil just noticed a typo in my post I meant to say NOT comparable.

With regards to going back to Miss I think it was to hark back to my pre married state when I felt free. During my marriage I was very much out of touch with women's issues but would have erred on the side of bring a lib fem. I think there was definitely stigma attached to Ms when I was a young woman (1990s) before my marriage.
If I can avoid titles I do. I still get called Mrs surname of children which is a bit annoying.

I need a title to be addressed by at my work as I sit on tribunals and couldn’t be addressed by my first name

I'm a Dr. Does that mean I'm non binary? Perhaps it explains why the pronoun adders are rife at my work.

Glad you are happier now :)

This topic like so many on feminism is so divisive.

This
Hair removal
Taking dH surname
I'm sure there's others

On MN they always end up in huge rows.

They're personal issues and people take things as personal criticism.

Even if the OP says this is not personal at all I want to look at this in general. It causes a ruckus.

And so women end up fighting amongst themselves.

Plus loads of men say oh god women they don't get on they're so critical of each other etc etc.

But things are not set up the same way for them.

Mr. Done. Easy.
Hair removal. Well men are generally pretty covered up. And when not, hair on men is not seen as dirty by lots of people in the same way. Yes men wax bits now. But it's much more, so what. Ouch! A hairy man going to the beach doesn't think I'd better get my back waxed otherwise I'll be seen as dirty/ gross etc etc. The whole thing is far less mired in politics, history etc.

Taking surname on marriage. Very rarely needs thought for a bloke. Keep surname. Easy.

I understand why stuff gets taken personally. And I understand why these things are seen as trivial when raised. And I understand why women often feel 'told off' and get fucked off

But while we're having these conversations and arguments about anything from makeup to younger girls having a bikini for hols to porn....

They are just getting on with things.

It's just a bit frustrating.

I think also women like me who have always since little noticed stuff and thought why??!!

Need to accept that loads of women are quite happy with the status quo in the UK.

And that's how they feel and that's that iyswim.

@NiceGerbil

Why is your first name intimate/ personal?

I really don't understand. Have you always felt this way or did it start at a certain age? I'm really interested because it's pretty unusual!

I think I was brought up that way. My family are pretty formal.

Quite a few people in my close family have titles that are not Mr/Miss/Mrs or Ms anyway.
But if they write to me they would use Miss or Mrs Snugglepumpkin on the envelope, with my Christian name inside at the top of the letter.

Christian names for personal relationships/to name staff if younger or in starter positions so I had a young cleaner & called her by her first name. I had an older cleaner & called her Mrs name.

Formal names for business/professional relationships.

In 30 or so years of business email use I don't think I have ever sent or received one using a title, it simply doesn't happen in my line of work. Firstname Lastname in the signature, Dear or Hi Firstname as a greeting, always.

Phonecalls - always ask to speak to Firstname Surname. Callers always ask for Firstname Surname or just Firstname too. Titles are never used.

Snuggle thanks for replying.

My parents are very formal as well. Can't remember a kiss or a hug etc. When I go round it's kind of fine but also like I'm intruding. That sort of thing.

My mum writes cards to Mr and Mrs Bob Jones.

She knows I hate it! I said once and she said it's 'correct' and that was that. Not mentioned it again. Anything from her I give up DH on the basis it's for him.

They both had the same professional title. Stuff when it was just to her would use it. Anything to both would change to title and Mrs. I always noticed that as a child and thought it was a bit rubbish tbh.

I've been in financial services for 30 years ish. Titles have rarely been used by those sending correspondence.

Work email is invariably first name. Surname, no title.

Does linked in have titles? Can't remember.

You phone the gas company and they say hello I'm Dave. Details etc. Can I call you first name? Would you ask for Dave's title and surname?

In general just name has been normal in so many things so long now. It must be a nightmare for you tbh. My MIL felt the same by the way. I mean everyone has their way of doing things.

In shops name badges often have first name. In restaurants they often say first name. How do you handle that? Do you ask? How does it work? I mean it's everywhere impressed you haven't thought sod it and caved!

'Christian names for personal relationships/to name staff if younger or in starter positions so I had a young cleaner & called her by her first name. I had an older cleaner & called her Mrs name.'

Missed this!

It's a hierarchical respect thing then.

If your boss was 10 years younger than you and your colleague with same job as you was 10 years older. When you started the job, how would you approach that?

It's an idea that people older than you are respected and younger less so, I think?

I do find that odd TBH not least because I doubt you often meet anyone who follows those rules.

I've used Ms when I have to since I was at Uni (so from about 1980), so I've been using it a looooong time Never came across any negativity - nor anyone making assumptions that I was some sort of dungaree wearing feminist harridan

Got married in 1998 and chose not to change my name. Dh and I did half think of double barrelling our names but decided it would sound like a tropical disease (his is a verb related to movement and mine is Germanic ).

If forced I will still use Ms as my title - but my preference is for no title at all.

My first name, which I use in a shortened form, combined with my Germanic surname, means that if people have only ever communicated with me by email (or in my early days at work: letter/memo ), they might think that I was a male, if I don't use a title. I don't use a title - their assumption is their problem

Early in my career, a colleague (who was organising business cards) complained to our mutual boss that I didn't want a title on my business card: "They won't know what sex she is" , he complained My boss replied to him that if they hadn't worked out what sex I was when I handed them the business card I was in my 20s and even if I say so myself, young and attractive - they had bigger problems I got my business card as as requested

My email address in all my jobs has always been first name.second name@organisation (or gmail.com). It's such an unusual name I've always managed to get my exact name even if I always have to spell it

If people who've not met me in person assume I'm male, because we'd only communicated in writing/by email, that's fine. It shouldn't make a difference in how they deal with me When we do meet in person (or even talk over the phone), it's obvious I'm female

Because it just doesn’t matter if someone knows that the correspondence came from a man or a woman. All that matters is the quality of the work. Sometimes the qualifications or expertise of the sender is required knowledge and should be specified, but again, sex is rarely relevant.

The joys of having a severe social phobia whilst being extremely introverted mean that I don't eat in restaurants etc.. so those are not situations I'm in.

I've actually had a good think about this before replying & I truly don't see what is strange about wanting to be called my given name.

I wouldn't be having a conversation with staff in a shop or restaurant anyway, I'd just place my order, use my ps & qs when required & leave a tip if appropriate.
None of it requires knowing the name of the person working there.
I don't see well enough now to read a name badge so I wouldn't even notice it was there.
If I go into a shop with pushy staff, they don't know my name so they just say 'can I help you?' & I respond yes or no but no names get used.

I don't phone people apart from my mother once a fortnight (if I didn't she would complain) & I honestly can't recall the last time I needed to phone a company about anything.
If I was getting a piece of furniture delivered or similar they phone & ask for Miss S. which is the name on the order.

Last week I had to online chat with a software company I use & they didn't call me anything, just said "my name is x how may I help you?" I didn't call them anything either because their name is not relevant to my tech issue.
They knew my name from my account but they didn't use any variation of it at all.

When a delivery driver or the postman knocks on the door they ask for Miss S. because that is what is written on the parcel.

I've lived next to the same neighbours for eleven years now.
They say hello if they see me when I'm outside but we don't know each others names.
I do know her first name because her ex used to scream it in the street quite often but I haven't ever used it.

I'd call my boss Mr/Miss/Mrs if I had one, but have been s/e & worked mostly alone for most of my life.
When people want something from you they call you whatever you want without complaint I guess, so my customers never seemed to have an issue.

My doctor, optician etc... has always called me Miss S if they called me anything.
Nurses, midwives etc... seem to think they can use your first name but desist when asked not to.
Teachers called me Mrs S as they seem to assume every woman with a school aged child is married.
My own teachers at school called me Miss S & all the other girls the same (girls only school)

I really just don't come across people who call me anything else.
Maybe because if you asked me my name I'd say Miss S because it would not be in a social situation.
I am almost never in them & if I have to be I'm not there to socialise, I'm there because I'm obliged to be for some reason.

If you responded giving your name as Mary I'd either ask for the rest of your name & use that or not use your name at all in the following discussion.
People tend to respond in kind though, so I say Miss S & they say Miss Whatever.
If I had to correspond with you at a later date I'd ask for the rest of your name & use that.
If you didn't give me a Miss/Mrs I'd use Miss (or Mrs if you were wearing a wedding ring & I'd noticed) & if it isn't correct you'd either never mention it & keep getting called that or respond with it's Ms or Mrs & I'd use the one you preferred instead.

This is the problem to me, that so many still default to Miss/Mrs depending on ring/no ring unless you actually specify Ms. Men just have one title and don't have this hassle and people working with the public don't have the hassle of having to check and remember when dealing with men. It makes my day if someone addresses me as Ms without being asked to, fortunately this does seem to happen more and more now.

As someone who has recently been widowed, I also find it incredibly insensitive when I am asked over the telephone, which has now happened to me three times in 6 months, whether I am Mrs or Miss. I have been known to snap, although I felt sorry afterwards, as I know that the person on the end of the line is just reading from a script. But it is time that script was changed.

I should have left the Mrs out, I use Ms, but basically, if we just use Mr/Ms in our email, surely that negates the bloody pronouns thing being required.