Ms, Mrs, Mr

[Keepitonthedownlow]

Why don't we just put these in email signatures? Is it not the same as pronouns? Why is this considered old fashioned, and the other progressive?

I would get rid of all titles TBH. They serve no purpose except to maybe signal position in society. Major, lord, etc etc

Names are fine.

Easiest thing to do with gender is have they for everyone. But that would be a hard change. Watching Wimbledon yesterday I was saying things like. She's got an amazing serve! OMG she nearly got that. Do I know the gender ID of the players?. Have their pronouns been confirmed? Have I asked them? No.

It was supposed to be Mr/ Ms.

The end.

Didn't catch on though obv.

It's not traditional at all, surely? I mean in the sense it's always been around and commonly used.

Like Miss and Mrs., the term Ms. has its origins in the female English title once used for all women, Mistress. It originated in the 17th century and was revived into mainstream usage in the 20th century.

Miss and Mrs., both derived from the then formal Mistress, like Mister did not originally indicate marital status.[6][7] Ms. was another acceptable abbreviation for Mistress in England in the 17th and 18th centuries.[8] During the 19th century, however, Mrs. and Miss came to be associated almost exclusively with marital status.[9] Ms. was popularized as an alternative in the 20th century.[10][11]

The earliest known proposal for the modern revival of Ms. as a title appeared in The Republican of Springfield, Massachusetts, on November 10, 1901:

That might explain why it's more usual in the USA then.

@NoGenderPleaseImBritish

I want a category that means woman.

You don't though. Because that's what Ms has always meant. I could come up with a fourth option but you and other people who can't accept that their feelings are rooted in sexism would say the fourth option is for "feminist hags"

Any woman who chooses the option besides "Miss" or "Mrs" is making a feminist choice and therefore a bitter hag right?

Please don't decide what I want, when I have already told you otherwise. I completely agree that it is routed in sexism, Ms has come to mean other things, another method to put women down and control them. To a large majority of people Ms means divorced/feminist/bitter old hag whatever, but Mr just means that. Just because sometimes I would just like to hide behind an anonymous title does not mean I'm not a proud feminist.

I will add I don't think it will ever be achieved and Ms is making inroads but it will certainly in my lifetime still be loaded to so many people.
It's so depressing that we can't even have a title that just means women.

I seem to rememeber the patriarchy riled against women asking to use the Ms title in very similar ways that people now have an issue with pronouns ( which everyone uses anyway, even with pets and ships )

I don't think the two are similar at all. Stating pronouns does nothing to help women's equality, unlike using Ms.

I don't understand why you'd put sex-denoting titles or pronouns in your email unless you wanted to flag up what sex you are. I can't imagine wanting to do that when women are treated worse than men in the workplace.

I don't think the two (pronouns and titles) are comparable.
Strangely though when I got divorced I went back to Miss, I didn't want to use Ms. I think this has a lot to do with wanting to get my full independence back after being in a long term abusive relationship. If I had used Ms it felt like I was still connected to him. However I don't use a title in my email, a lot of externals do reply Dear Ms. In fact I get put as Ms in quite a lot of situations.
I was reading a colleague's external email the other day to copy and she had put Mrs First name Surname and it just seemed really strange to me.

I love the fact I’m married and I’m proud of the fact so to speak. I won’t be shying away from using Mrs

I love the fact that I'm married too, wouldn't be caught dead using Mrs though.

@EverythingDelegated

I love the fact that I'm married too, wouldn't be caught dead using Mrs though.

I like other people to know I’m married and that’s a sure fire way they do I suppose

Whereas I'd feel really weird using a special "married" title, its no one else's business.

@EverythingDelegated

Whereas I'd feel really weird using a special "married" title, its no one else's business.

Absolutely fair enough. I absolutely want every to know I’m married and so totally love using Mrs

@FemaleAndLearning

I don't think the two (pronouns and titles) are comparable. Strangely though when I got divorced I went back to Miss, I didn't want to use Ms. I think this has a lot to do with wanting to get my full independence back after being in a long term abusive relationship. If I had used Ms it felt like I was still connected to him. However I don't use a title in my email, a lot of externals do reply Dear Ms. In fact I get put as Ms in quite a lot of situations. I was reading a colleague's external email the other day to copy and she had put Mrs First name Surname and it just seemed really strange to me.

Can I ask why?

I used it since i was young.

Was it because so many people think it means divorced

Or

That you just wanted to use the same term as before you were married

No right or wrong, and definitely no judgement! Just interested.

Table why do you want everyone to know you're married?

I understand a lot of women feel that way- my MIL was proud of being married. And she was really annoyed when she was addressed with no title as she found it disrespectful.

Do you feel that men should have different single/ married titles as well?

'As soon as I clicked the 'Ms' option I had to supply my 'unmarried name' as evidently the person designing the form had decided that Ms means divorced woman'

Yes I've heard this happens a lot. I wonder where it came from. It seems to be common but it's not what it means at all.

@NoGenderPleaseImBritish

I want a category that means woman.

You don't though. Because that's what Ms has always meant. I could come up with a fourth option but you and other people who can't accept that their feelings are rooted in sexism would say the fourth option is for "feminist hags"

Any woman who chooses the option besides "Miss" or "Mrs" is making a feminist choice and therefore a bitter hag right?

I'm not getting your posts.

Where I live and when I was young, men took the piss out of women who used it. Because they were obviously shouty awful man haters.

Hardly anyone uses it IME.

I don't understand the insistence that it's neutral/ widely used.

I accept your experience is different. Maybe you grew up in a different part of the country or in a different era.

I'm not sure how reporting the reaction to it, makes the women saying it sexist. Or have I misunderstood?

@NiceGerbil

Table why do you want everyone to know you're married?

I understand a lot of women feel that way- my MIL was proud of being married. And she was really annoyed when she was addressed with no title as she found it disrespectful.

Do you feel that men should have different single/ married titles as well?

Because I’m proud that I am married. It makes me happy and I feel good about it.

Some men don’t wear rings, but my husband does because that’s his way of showing others that he’s married.

I’m indifferent to whether men should/n’t have different single/married titles.

Women aren’t forced to use Mrs and that’s perfectly acceptable too.

No of course they aren't! Which is why ms never really got off the ground. Loads and loads of women won't use it.

DH wears an engagement ring on one hand and s wedding ring on the other.. I don't wear any! Horses for courses.

I was interested, no criticism.

@NiceGerbil

No of course they aren't! Which is why ms never really got off the ground. Loads and loads of women won't use it.

DH wears an engagement ring on one hand and s wedding ring on the other.. I don't wear any! Horses for courses.

I was interested, no criticism.

None taken. As long as women have the choice that’s what counts. I’m happy to wear a ring, be called Mrs but I understand that’s not for everyone and that’s cool too.

To add, I’d I see Ms on a form, I certainly assume they’re divorced. I assume they don’t want people to know they’re business and quite right if that’s how they feel.

Sorry - I meant I certainly don’t assume they’re divorced

It is a thing though.

There've been loads of threads over the years about female titles and it always comes up. I have heard (women) say it in real life as well.

Often a few years ago but not decades.

Like the PP, with more official stuff, an insistence on a previous surname/s if they use Ms on the basis they must be divorced.

It's I suppose too tricky to understand that women might have a title option that doesn't inform whether she is available or not.