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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Advice: schools socially transitioning children without parental knowledge or consent.

423 replies

Libby55 · 03/07/2021 17:09

Hi,

The school I work in is socially transitioning children by changing their names and pronouns without informing parents. Adults working in school are supposed to keep this a secret when communicating with parents. I believe this is a safeguarding issue and that the school is harming children. This is something I know little about and I'm asking for help because I'm looking for an organisation that specifically campaigns against schools harming children in this way. My colleagues share my concerns but are afraid to raise their concerns. My union seems to have adopted gender identity politics. I have to do something: I can see children being harmed. If any of you know of a teacher's group that is lobbying against the practice of socially transitioning children without parents' knowledge or consent, please let me know. I would like to get involved.

OP posts:
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CuckooCuckooClock · 03/07/2021 20:08

I don’t have any answers for you but the school I work at is doing the same. I feel like such a lone voice when I raise concerns. Our SGL is on board with socially transitioning without parental consent. I’ve mentioned it very cautiously to a couple of other teachers and they don’t see my point at all. I just wanted to post in solidarity with you OP. I am trying to drip drip drip my concerns to other staff in the hope of finding like-minded individuals.

TheSlayer · 03/07/2021 20:19

I'd also advise you to speak to some long-standing tas if you have this issue in your school. They tend to have a wealth of knowledge and despite being paid peanuts are often wiser than the teachers, especially if you have an influx of nqts.
No disrespect to nqts, but I know I learned so much in my nqt from support staff and know they're often the voice of reason in the school.

LovlyMe · 03/07/2021 21:01

Um, what does the child have to say about you doing this? You can't just be giving this kind of information to their parents without their knowledge. That is the whole point of safegaurding. You are putting this child in danger right now.

twelly · 03/07/2021 21:11

It is appalling , another example of the promotion of this trend which is not in children/students best interest. I feel that our children are being let down and are being manipulated by the media and supported in this by the schools.

EyeEdinburgh · 03/07/2021 21:21

Dear Libby:

The reason your school, and your teachers' union, and the majority of the staff, have safeguarding guidelines that say "Don't out a LGBT student to their parents unless you have the student's explicit permission to discuss this with the student's parents" is the same reason doctors aren't allowed to discuss a child having an abortion with the child's parents.

If the child has made the decision that it is not safe to discuss these issues with the parents, the child has made an informed decision based on much more information about their parents' characteristics than the teachers (or a doctor) can have.

Allowing a child the freedom to say what pronouns the child uses, and what name the child wants to be called by, is a harmless freedom: there is no reason at all for the parents to be told the child has picked the name Dennis when the parents always call their child Claudia, any more than there would be if the child says "Call me Denny" and the parents have always called the child Dennis. The parents might want to know that their child no longer uses "Dennis", but they don't need to know.

Especially as there is always a risk - a real risk, even if a small one - that the parents will turn out to be bigoted against trans people, will react badly to discovering that their child is considering if they may be transgender or nonbinary. There is no reason to put any child at risk when it's completely unnecessary. As your trade union, and your school's safeguarding policies, and most of the other staff, have already let you know.

Libby55 · 03/07/2021 21:41

Thanks for all the supportive comments. I'll post any relevant information I can find :)

OP posts:
Libby55 · 03/07/2021 21:45

@twelly

It is appalling , another example of the promotion of this trend which is not in children/students best interest. I feel that our children are being let down and are being manipulated by the media and supported in this by the schools.
Yeah, this is another reason why it's a safeguarding issue. It raises questions about grooming/coaching by adults who approach children online. Parents can protect their children from online grooming but it's harder for them to do so if this information is kept from them.
OP posts:
Datun · 03/07/2021 21:54

This is the DfE advice

“You should work together with parents on any decisions regarding your school’s treatment of their child, in line with the school’s safeguarding policy and the statutory guidance on Working Together to Safeguard Children.”

Telling children you will keep their secrets from parents is a direct safeguarding issue. People who claim it isn't do not understand safeguarding.

www.transgendertrend.com/department-for-education-rse-guidance-schools/

RobinMoiraWhite · 03/07/2021 21:57

[quote rogdmum]It’s not lawful and schools that affirm without parental knowledge are opening themselves up to a potential lawsuit:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35e99aa2-b038-11eb-b844-593e41a4a1a5?shareToken=77fd5ea8746d4fdc993d7571a2a9cff1[/quote]
One should, perhaps, be careful about making statements like 'its not lawful' when relying on the unpublished privately - provided opinion of a lawyer acting for a pressure group.

I am NOT expressing a view about the rights and wrongs of the situation being commented on, rather caution about the quality of a legal source.

Libby55 · 03/07/2021 22:04

[quote Datun]This is the DfE advice

“You should work together with parents on any decisions regarding your school’s treatment of their child, in line with the school’s safeguarding policy and the statutory guidance on Working Together to Safeguard Children.”

Telling children you will keep their secrets from parents is a direct safeguarding issue. People who claim it isn't do not understand safeguarding.

www.transgendertrend.com/department-for-education-rse-guidance-schools/[/quote]
That's correct. Luckily, schools are staffed by people who are qualified to work with children, and receive training on and understand safeguarding. And we are prohibited from using our position to promote political ideologies. Any teacher / school doing so is therefore in breach of safeguarding protocols.

OP posts:
Leafstamp · 03/07/2021 22:06

[quote Datun]This is the DfE advice

“You should work together with parents on any decisions regarding your school’s treatment of their child, in line with the school’s safeguarding policy and the statutory guidance on Working Together to Safeguard Children.”

Telling children you will keep their secrets from parents is a direct safeguarding issue. People who claim it isn't do not understand safeguarding.

www.transgendertrend.com/department-for-education-rse-guidance-schools/[/quote]
This.

CharlieParley · 03/07/2021 22:06

@EyeEdinburgh

Dear Libby:

The reason your school, and your teachers' union, and the majority of the staff, have safeguarding guidelines that say "Don't out a LGBT student to their parents unless you have the student's explicit permission to discuss this with the student's parents" is the same reason doctors aren't allowed to discuss a child having an abortion with the child's parents.

If the child has made the decision that it is not safe to discuss these issues with the parents, the child has made an informed decision based on much more information about their parents' characteristics than the teachers (or a doctor) can have.

Allowing a child the freedom to say what pronouns the child uses, and what name the child wants to be called by, is a harmless freedom: there is no reason at all for the parents to be told the child has picked the name Dennis when the parents always call their child Claudia, any more than there would be if the child says "Call me Denny" and the parents have always called the child Dennis. The parents might want to know that their child no longer uses "Dennis", but they don't need to know.

Especially as there is always a risk - a real risk, even if a small one - that the parents will turn out to be bigoted against trans people, will react badly to discovering that their child is considering if they may be transgender or nonbinary. There is no reason to put any child at risk when it's completely unnecessary. As your trade union, and your school's safeguarding policies, and most of the other staff, have already let you know.

This is nonsense. Keeping important information about a child from its parents is not just a breach of safeguarding, it's also potentially a breach of a number of Articles of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Unless an order exists that mandates that a child's parents have been judged to be a danger to their child, this kind of withholding of information is not in the interests of the child either.

Amongst a number of other things, it may delay the child accessing timely support for gender dysphoria.

PumpkinSpiceWoman · 03/07/2021 22:09

Again, not a safeguarding matter. Nor a political one.

rogdmum · 03/07/2021 22:14

Which pressure group was the opinion produced for Robin ?

Leafstamp · 03/07/2021 22:19

@rogdmum

Which pressure group was the opinion produced for Robin ?
I don’t think Robin will be able to answer this. Just like Robin cannot deny this is a safeguarding breach.
Soontobe60 · 03/07/2021 22:21

@EyeEdinburgh

Dear Libby:

The reason your school, and your teachers' union, and the majority of the staff, have safeguarding guidelines that say "Don't out a LGBT student to their parents unless you have the student's explicit permission to discuss this with the student's parents" is the same reason doctors aren't allowed to discuss a child having an abortion with the child's parents.

If the child has made the decision that it is not safe to discuss these issues with the parents, the child has made an informed decision based on much more information about their parents' characteristics than the teachers (or a doctor) can have.

Allowing a child the freedom to say what pronouns the child uses, and what name the child wants to be called by, is a harmless freedom: there is no reason at all for the parents to be told the child has picked the name Dennis when the parents always call their child Claudia, any more than there would be if the child says "Call me Denny" and the parents have always called the child Dennis. The parents might want to know that their child no longer uses "Dennis", but they don't need to know.

Especially as there is always a risk - a real risk, even if a small one - that the parents will turn out to be bigoted against trans people, will react badly to discovering that their child is considering if they may be transgender or nonbinary. There is no reason to put any child at risk when it's completely unnecessary. As your trade union, and your school's safeguarding policies, and most of the other staff, have already let you know.

You have no idea. If a child is using a binder and parents are not informed it’s a safeguarding concern. If a child is being encouraged to source puberty blockers online and parents are not informed it is a safeguarding concern. If a child believes wrongly that they are ‘born in the wrong body’ and parents are not informed it is a safeguarding concern. If a child believes that having their breasts removed is a good idea and the parents are not informed it is a safeguarding concern.

Would you tell a parent if a child had an eating disorder and was starving themselves? If a child believed that they should join a extremist organisation? If they were being coerced into County Lines? If they were having sex at 12? If they had an Onlyfans account?

rogdmum · 03/07/2021 22:22

It is very true, Leaf , that Robin will not be able to answer it. 😂😂😂

Jellycatspyjamas · 03/07/2021 22:25

The reason your school, and your teachers' union, and the majority of the staff, have safeguarding guidelines that say "Don't out a LGBT student to their parents unless you have the student's explicit permission to discuss this with the student's parents" is the same reason doctors aren't allowed to discuss a child having an abortion with the child's parents.

Doctors are bound by medical confidentiality which applies regardless of age, with the capacity to consent to medical treatment being subject to an assessment against Gillick principles in England and by legislation in Scotland. Teachers aren’t bound by confidentiality in the same way and don’t have the skills and training to assess against Gillick. The reasons doctors can hold confidence are completely different to the collaborative approach meant to be in place in schools.

GAHgamel · 03/07/2021 22:33

@EyeEdinburgh If the child's parents are not considered safe enough to know that their child is socially transitioning, then how can that not be a safeguarding issue? An individual disclosure of having had an abortion or being gay is a different matter, as these are not things that you will be sharing with the whole school community, but changing names and pronouns means that they can get inadvertently outed to their family by anybody. Any poor reaction from their parents is only going to be exacerbated by discovering that this was being deliberately kept from them while the whole school knew.

Rule 1 I was given in teacher training was "never tell a child you will keep a secret for them", as you may need to breach that commitment for safeguarding reasons, and having a culture of shared secrets with adults makes them vulnerable to grooming.

RobinMoiraWhite · 03/07/2021 22:39

@rogdmum

Which pressure group was the opinion produced for Robin ?
Rather than relying on a report in The Times, lets see the advice? Oh, its never been made public. Funny that. So rather difficult to have any respect for it. As I understand it, theis advice is said to be based on a very strained interpretation of Human Rights Law. And yes, outing a child to their parents in the circumstances described is, indeed a safeguarding issue, But fortunatey the school and the relevant unions understand that, and the OP is clear about the consequences. All Good.
MrsOvertonsWindow · 03/07/2021 22:39

Excellent post Jellycatspyjamas

In the same way, no teacher trained in safeguarding would ever state that children can make informed decisions based on much more information about their parents' characteristics than the teachers (or a doctor) can have
That's the language of abusers - "No need to tell your parents, they'll never understand. Only I understand you".

Quaggars · 03/07/2021 22:41

@EyeEdinburgh

Dear Libby:

The reason your school, and your teachers' union, and the majority of the staff, have safeguarding guidelines that say "Don't out a LGBT student to their parents unless you have the student's explicit permission to discuss this with the student's parents" is the same reason doctors aren't allowed to discuss a child having an abortion with the child's parents.

If the child has made the decision that it is not safe to discuss these issues with the parents, the child has made an informed decision based on much more information about their parents' characteristics than the teachers (or a doctor) can have.

Allowing a child the freedom to say what pronouns the child uses, and what name the child wants to be called by, is a harmless freedom: there is no reason at all for the parents to be told the child has picked the name Dennis when the parents always call their child Claudia, any more than there would be if the child says "Call me Denny" and the parents have always called the child Dennis. The parents might want to know that their child no longer uses "Dennis", but they don't need to know.

Especially as there is always a risk - a real risk, even if a small one - that the parents will turn out to be bigoted against trans people, will react badly to discovering that their child is considering if they may be transgender or nonbinary. There is no reason to put any child at risk when it's completely unnecessary. As your trade union, and your school's safeguarding policies, and most of the other staff, have already let you know.

@EyeofEdinburgh That's exactly what I thought earlier, surely it's a safeguarding issue to come out to parents in some instances? Also, schools usually ask you what your preferred name is when you start, if you have a nickname/shortened version of your name etc, when nothing to do with being trans. This just fits into there? Just like you wouldn't out someone as gay to their parents if you thought it would put them in danger, this seems the same.
CharlieParley · 03/07/2021 22:44

There's a Children's Rights Impact Assessment which looks into the secrecy aspect that you might find helpful Libby55.

You'll find it here secureservercdn.net/160.153.137.99/hjn.a49.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Childrens-Rights-Impact-Assessment-by-Women-and-Girls-in-Scotland.pdf

Pages 20 to 24 address the secrecy aspect. Here is an excerpt:

Making recommendations in regard to information sharing with parents without taking into account the differing capacities between older and younger children, or children with disabilities or additional learning needs, may contravene the principle of article 5.

The guidance [LGBT Youth Scotland Guidance] also mentions the potential “risk” posed by the child’s parents in relation to information sharing.

If a school believes that a child is at risk from their parents, for any reason, then they should take action in line with local child protection procedures. While ‘inadvertent’ disclosure should always be avoided, in terms of information sharing, the primary consideration must be the safety and wellbeing of the young person, and vital to this is the facilitation of a support network, particularly when a lack of parental support is a known risk factor.

In the absence of any child protection issues, it is questionable that it would ever be in a younger child’s best interests to withhold information regarding a trans disclosure from their parents. In which case, the directive to seek consent from the child may be misplaced, as “consent should only be sought when the individual has a real choice over whether the information should be shared”.

In line with article 5 and the evolving capacities of the child, it should be recognised that older children and young people will begin to exercise their rights (for example, to privacy) on their own behalf. This stage, during which young people are still dependent and in need of protection but are increasingly autonomous and competent to exercise their own rights, is recognised as “perhaps the most difficult and controversial issue in children’s rights.”

Even with this in mind, and with no immediate wellbeing concerns, in the first instance, information sharing with parents by the young person themselves should be encouraged, in order to assist parents to fulfil their responsibilities to their child as advised by article 18 and to facilitate a support network for the young person. If there are reasons why parents may not be best placed to support their child, then investigation of alternative support for the young person should encouraged, such as from a grandparent.

Article 18 and child protection guidance underscore the importance of parental involvement, as parents have the primary role in safeguarding and protecting their children’s best interests and wellbeing. Routine maintenance of confidentiality from parents, who may be a crucial source of support, without further investigation with regards to wellbeing or differentiation on the basis of evolving capacities, may contravene article 18.

Libby55 · 03/07/2021 22:45

[quote GAHgamel]**@EyeEdinburgh* If the child's parents are not considered safe enough to know that their child is socially transitioning, then how can that not* be a safeguarding issue? An individual disclosure of having had an abortion or being gay is a different matter, as these are not things that you will be sharing with the whole school community, but changing names and pronouns means that they can get inadvertently outed to their family by anybody. Any poor reaction from their parents is only going to be exacerbated by discovering that this was being deliberately kept from them while the whole school knew.

Rule 1 I was given in teacher training was "never tell a child you will keep a secret for them", as you may need to breach that commitment for safeguarding reasons, and having a culture of shared secrets with adults makes them vulnerable to grooming.[/quote]
That's a really good point about the danger of arguing that parents pose a threat (while doing nothing about it).

OP posts:
rogdmum · 03/07/2021 22:48

Rather than relying on a report in The Times, lets see the advice? Oh, its never been made public. Funny that. So rather difficult to have any respect for it. As I understand it, theis advice is said to be based on a very strained interpretation of Human Rights Law.

Ah, Robin so your claim that it was provided for a pressure group was based on an unsubstantiated guess on your part, then? I shall also assume that your assumption that it’s based on a “very strained interpretation of Human Rights Law” is also an unsubstantiated guess as you won’t have seen the opinion, will you?

“One”

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