Advice: schools socially transitioning children without parental knowledge or consent.

[Libby55]

Hi,

The school I work in is socially transitioning children by changing their names and pronouns without informing parents. Adults working in school are supposed to keep this a secret when communicating with parents. I believe this is a safeguarding issue and that the school is harming children. This is something I know little about and I'm asking for help because I'm looking for an organisation that specifically campaigns against schools harming children in this way. My colleagues share my concerns but are afraid to raise their concerns. My union seems to have adopted gender identity politics. I have to do something: I can see children being harmed. If any of you know of a teacher's group that is lobbying against the practice of socially transitioning children without parents' knowledge or consent, please let me know. I would like to get involved.

Because teachers can never be a harm to pupils can they?

@titchy "Why do you assume, with no experience whatsoever, that affirmation is ALWAYS the best course of action?"

What makes you think I have no experience of what happens when parents decide they're not going to affirm their children - when parents decide they can bully their child out of being LGBT?

[quote EyeEdinburgh]**@Soontobe60* Why do you assume that all parents are able to be trusted? That no* parents are homophobic, sexist, prolife, transphobic? And are you always this rude? Did your parents not bring you up to be polite?[/quote]
@EyeEdinburgh

Why do YOU assume that all ADULTS in whom a vulnerable child might confide in are to be trusted?

That no adults on the periphery of that child's existence, who seem warm and caring and welcoming are not paedophiles/drug dealers/sex traffickers? And are you always this naive? Did your parents not bring you up to think critically?

Look at it from that perspective

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Because teachers can never be a harm to pupils can they?

That's what safeguarding is designed to avoid!

[quote EyeEdinburgh]@Datun: "Many children transition because of trauma, because of sexual orientation or ASD. "

Okay, I give up. That's exactly what bigots used to say about lesbian or gay children - we're only queer because of trauma.

Once you move on to "My child is LGBT because someone did something to them" rather than "my child is LGBT, I will love and support my child" you are lost.[/quote]
I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. You need to look at the ongoing cases with the Tavistock. And the 30 clinicians who have left, so many of whom are worried that they are simply transing every gay kid who comes through their doors.

You also need to look at the whopping overrepresentation of children who are autistic showing up at gender clinics.

The other thing that you need to ask yourself is what you believe trans is? Do you seriously believe that if a child detests their body to the point where they have gender dysphoria, that this should not then be disseminated to the appropriate agencies?

And if they don't have gender dysphoria, then what an earth do you think being trans is?

Unless you think it's a lifestyle choice?

[quote EyeEdinburgh]@titchy "Why do you assume, with no experience whatsoever, that affirmation is ALWAYS the best course of action?"

What makes you think I have no experience of what happens when parents decide they're not going to affirm their children - when parents decide they can bully their child out of being LGBT?[/quote]
Because all you've talked about is your horrendous experience of coming out. For which you have my fullest sympathy. But being gay isn't the same as wanting to be a different sex. At all.

Yup. But people are people - otherwise - priests, boy Scots of America, care homes in the U.K., US gymnastics team doctor...Etc etc etc.

Secrets are rarely genuinely worth keeping. If anyone asks a child to keep a secret...

[quote EyeEdinburgh]@titchy "Why do you assume, with no experience whatsoever, that affirmation is ALWAYS the best course of action?"

What makes you think I have no experience of what happens when parents decide they're not going to affirm their children - when parents decide they can bully their child out of being LGBT?[/quote]
Do you think coming out as gay/lesbian is the same as identifying as trans?

[quote EyeEdinburgh]@titchy "Why do you assume, with no experience whatsoever, that affirmation is ALWAYS the best course of action?"

What makes you think I have no experience of what happens when parents decide they're not going to affirm their children - when parents decide they can bully their child out of being LGBT?[/quote]
You've clearly stated you have no clue about current educational practices. So What's your angle?

You had some difficult issues with the way you came out, and how your family made you feel. That's a difficult thing to deal with. It was obviously traumatic for you based on your responses.

So now you're saying that no child should have safeguarding measure in place where issues of gender dysphoria come up, because you are angry at the way your parents treated you?

So now you're saying that no child should have safeguarding measure in place where issues of gender dysphoria come up, because you are angry at the way your parents treated you?

EyeEdinburgh. This is what it looks like, based on reading your posts.

Please understand, that social transitioning children is the biggest indicator of medical transition. Which is huge. It's not like coming out as gay.

Children who have gender dysphoria need input, not secrecy.

The stunning arrogance of someone who thinks they know better than social workers, who.deal with the worst types of abuse including neglect, fgm, abuse etc.

To paraphrase Ygritte. You know nothin'.

I post this with the awareness that there will be many people who disagree with me, and that's fine. I feel it is important to post accurate advise and to provide alternative views, which I've been assured are welcome on Mumsnet.

The reason why we disagree with you DaisyJohnson is because what you posted is not advice, let alone lawful advice, but uninformed nonsense.

You make up very odd rules about disclosure and you refer to the Equality Act 2010 as if this was the only relevant legislation.

If you really are a teacher, then you will no doubt be aware that safeguarding children is something so important that we don't just have one relevant law, or two, or three, but nine different sets of laws which inform how safeguarding works in UK schools.

The Children Act 1989
The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child 1992
The Human Rights Act 1998
The Education Act 2002
Equality Act 2010
Children and Families Act 2014
The Children and Social Work Act 2017
Working Together to Safeguard Children 2018
Keeping Children Safe in Education 2019

We look to all of these different laws to balance the need to safeguard children with the rights they have under these laws. So, no, the rights of a child under the Equality Act 2010 do not supersede the rights of its parents to make decisions they believe to be in the child's best interest, even without the consent of the child.

As an example of how these laws inform our safeguarding policies, I already quoted in an earlier comment on this thread an excerpt from a Children's Rights Impact Assessment on the withholding of information from parents that shows how this potentially violates the rights children have under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

FYI, this assessment was scrutinised by the Children's and Young People's Commissioner in Scotland (CYPCS). This is the regulator tasked with upholding children's rights in Scotland. (England and Wales have their own Commissioner.) The CYPCS not only accepted the assessment was accurate, they publicly called it “extremely thorough, well researched, comprehensive, informative and helpful”. They then contacted the Scottish Government to remind it that all guidance used in schools must be lawful (said guidance incorrectly claims amongst a great many other incorrect claims that information of a child's trans status must be withheld from parents if the child doesn't consent to sharing it). The Scottish Government later got separate legal advice on its preferred guidance, which confirmed that it was "not legal".

Please consider what everyone else involved in safeguarding has told you - an important safeguarding principle is not to promise confidentiality to a child. What they have also all pointed out is that any disclosure that raises a safeguarding concern is then referred to the school's safeguarding lead (and not immediately and automatically shared with parents).

@Outhere

And yet again I despair. Louder for those of you at the back 'SAFEGUARDING IS EVERYONE'S BUSINESS'. The problem appears to be that safeguarding is being abused so that it fits the narrative of the adults; that's not what safeguarding is about, it is about the children. It doesn't change according to the problem, the key principles remain the same, and adults twisting this are part of the problem.

Some basics for those who appear to be unsure:

We don't encourage children to keep secrets with adults, however nice and well intending those adults maybe.

We do not step outside our trained area of expertise and make decisions about what information should be shared and what shouldn't. If you worry that sharing information with a child's parent might result in abuse, then THAT is a safeguarding concern. You've identified it, now you make a safeguarding referral.

We do not make unilateral decisions about children without involving their parents who have parental responsibility. Full stop.

Safeguarding is not a pick n mix. Schools should not be selecting parts which suit them and discarding the bits that don't. I cannot think of another situation where a school would choose to employ this approach. Why are young people who question their gender identity being offered less safeguards than their peers? Safeguarding is there for all children, no exceptions and I cannot fathom why anyone would want any less.

Yours Sincerely,
One horrified Social Worker

In case you.missed it.

@datun In a thread full of people arguing that it's wildly inappropriate for children to have safeguarding measures if they may be transitioning, why are you arguing that I am saying children shouldn't be safeguarded?

Please note, this thread started because @Libby55 doesn't like the safeguarding measures for children that the Department of Education and her trade union agree on, and wants to violate those safeguarding measures if she can find enough teachers to agree with her that it's inappropriate for children to be protected by safeguarding measures.

Because the school are violating safeguarding protocol.
The safeguarding lead in this case needs to be bypassed for the local authority safeguarding.lead.

[quote EyeEdinburgh]**@datun* In a thread full of people arguing that it's wildly inappropriate for children to have safeguarding measures if they may be transitioning, why are you arguing that I* am saying children shouldn't be safeguarded?

Please note, this thread started because @Libby55 doesn't like the safeguarding measures for children that the Department of Education and her trade union agree on, and wants to violate those safeguarding measures if she can find enough teachers to agree with her that it's inappropriate for children to be protected by safeguarding measures.[/quote]
The DfE does not sanction or agree to the NEU's guidelines. They produce the statutory guidelines for schools that insist on safeguarding all children with no exceptions and working in partnership with parents.

The NEU's unfit for purpose guidelines have evidently been written by adult political lobbyists with no child safeguarding input.

[quote EyeEdinburgh]**@datun* In a thread full of people arguing that it's wildly inappropriate for children to have safeguarding measures if they may be transitioning, why are you arguing that I* am saying children shouldn't be safeguarded?

Please note, this thread started because @Libby55 doesn't like the safeguarding measures for children that the Department of Education and her trade union agree on, and wants to violate those safeguarding measures if she can find enough teachers to agree with her that it's inappropriate for children to be protected by safeguarding measures.[/quote]
The DfE safeguarding requirement is being ignored - that's why the OP posted.

@dyslek

I work in a school that does this and I know 80% of the parents would go mental if they knew (its a mainly Muslem school) but because I dont know any of the parents I dont know how to tell them what is going on.

I wouldn't recommend telling the parents. Even if we believe that the school isn't following safeguarding procedures, we still need to go through the proper channels. That could mean anything from alerting social services, to calling police, to reporting the school etc.

@EyeEdinburgh did you miss the part where the Scottish Government guidance which supports the practice you think is appropriate was deemed to be not legal in two separate reviews?

It’s really unsettling to see anyone taking a simplistic view of a child changing their name and pronouns in school. Treating it as if it’s simply like using a nickname; it absolutely is not. It is a serious move, often viewed as pivotal in terms of setting them on a pathway towards medical transition. Thank goodness that we have people like the OP in schools looking out for our children.

As the mother of a young teenage daughter with self-diagnosed gender dysphoria I would be horrified if this was something that school was consciously hiding from us. I believe it would put my daughter at risk of significant psychological distress to he socially transitioned at school without our knowledge.

Thankfully my daughter has not indicated any desire to change name/pronouns at school and we have been able to talk with her (supportively and lovingly) about why that might not be in her best interests at her young age. And thankfully, because I knew of her gender identity issues before school did, I have been able to make them aware of the situation, her distress, the support she has at home, and they are ‘on the same page’ with no desire to lead any young person down a path that may not ultimately be in their best interests. I have also provided them with links to safe, evidence-based resources (Safe Schools Alliance, Transgender Trend etc).

And, coming out as gay/lesbian is most definitely NOT the same as coming out as transgender, in a world where some of the ‘grown ups’ believe that the first thing parents like me should do is pop their child off to the gender clinic for their hormone prescription. And don’t get me started on the online influences 😡

[quote EyeEdinburgh]@OldCrone "People have repeatedly told you that these guidelines should be followed."

Yes. And I agree. what none of the people on this thread have managed to explain is why they think that because Dennis tells the class teacher "I want you to call me Gloria and use she/her pronouns" this means the child's welfare is at risk. Providing the school has stout and effective anti-bullying policies, the class ought to follow the teacher's lead and call Gloria, Gloria. Maybe the child is a trans girl. Maybe not.[/quote]
Thing is, though, EyeEdinburgh, you are just wrong about this 'maybe, maybe not'.

I know this probably seems strange to you, but actually there is no such thing as a trans girl.

(Certainly for any minor child this is true -- which is the only thing that matters on this thread, in any case. The stronger claim, that there are no trans children simpliciter , need not be argued here.)

This being so, now, neither you nor any other adult has the right to assert the contrary (that there is such a thing as a minor trans child) to any child, nor does anyone have the right to act as though this contrary were true where this would be contrary to the wishes of the parent of the child.

This is particularly the case where a teacher may suggest that a specific child 'may or may not' be a trans child.

I love my children and grandchildren. I think teachers teaching them harmful nonsense is wrong . I refuse to allow them to do so, and I have every right so to refuse. My love for my children is what drives this refusal; the law backs up my rights in the matter.

Do you understand? This is independent of the safeguarding claim about 'no secrets from parents' (which is also, but independently, correct).

So, yes, I know something of what it would be like, if I'd confided in an adult I trusted, and the adult had very promptly gone to my parents and told them - six months or so before I was ready to tell them - "Hey, your daughter is a lesbian, she doesn't want to tell you, but you ought to know, she's not old enough to have secrets from you."

I'm sorry that you were not accepted by your mother EyeEdinburgh when you came out and I'm glad you had an adult to confide in and support you at the time.

I just want to explain something that you seem not to be aware of. Safeguarding frameworks used in our schools do of course take into account the child's developing abilities.

So in your case for instance, where a 17-year-old confides in a teacher that they are gay, it is highly unlikely that the school would inform the parents unless there is a safeguarding issue (such as bullying or harassment or self-harm). What the teacher would do is to ask the 17-year-old to disclose the information to their parents themselves and support them by facilitating disclosure in a safe environment.

But many of the children who are disclosing that they identify as trans are much younger than that, often pre-teens. I'm sure you understand that an 11-year-old has different capabilities than a 17-year-old, and that therefore the former requires far more guidance and tighter safeguarding than the latter. Safeguarding frameworks take this into account (without however removing the requirement to safeguard the older child).

And related to CharleyParley’s post, I’ve had it in writing from ScotGov that the new guidance we’re all waiting for 18 months down the line:

“has been updated to address the concerns that were raised, including those around parental engagement “ (bolding, if it worked, mine)

I have low expectations around this and given how late the revised guidance is, possibly we are on a never ending “imminent launch” of the new guidelines, but ScotGov do seem to accept that it is not lawful to keep parents in the dark and they are keen to make it clear that affirming children as the opposite sex is a choice by schools, not a legal requirement, regardless of what the more “strident” (shall we say) posters here believe.

Gender distress is very complex and can arise from a multitude of underlying factors. Affirmation isn’t right for all children and can be extremely damaging for some, particularly those who use being seen as the opposite sex as a maladaptive coping mechanism.

There seems to be this odd belief amongst the more strident here that if you aren’t automatically affirming, you are pushing for your child to desist. Whereas in reality, parents need to be supportive of their child, which can mean understanding any underlying issues and resolving those. It’s a very odd and simplistic (childish?) view to take.that not affirming = abuse or similar.

This thread is baffling. And eye opening.

Again, and I've been asking this for years - why do supposed trans allies think that kids who identify as trans don't deserve the same level of safeguarding as any other child?

Are people (in general) lying or genuinely unable to understand safeguarding principles? They've been asserted time and again - and ignored or told they're wrong?

So, yes, I know something of what it would be like, if I'd confided in an adult I trusted, and the adult had very promptly gone to my parents and told them - six months or so before I was ready to tell them - "Hey, your daughter is a lesbian, she doesn't want to tell you, but you ought to know, she's not old enough to have secrets from you.

I'm not expecting a genuine answer to this but : If that happened, would you believe that safeguarding principles had been followed?

And even LGBT Youth Scotland are all over the place on this question of affirming. In the teacher training transcript posted by forwomen.scot, the question of watchful waiting came up and the response from the LGBTYS trainer rambled on about “persistent and insistent”:

“ Um [Teacher name] has asked, recently, having been at Scottish Parliament [1], hearing what was recommended that schools adopt a watchful waiting approach and cautioned against an affirmative approach. Um, you don’t have an hour for me to go into this. But in terms of what we typically talk about is, and actually it’s on this slide, I think, persistent and insistent. If a young person, particularly around neurodiverse, young people, if there’s a persistence and an insistence around their trans or non-binary identity, then that’s something that we need to acknowledge and listen to. In terms of, you know, affirming a person’s gender identity, I can’t necessarily answer that because I don’t know, you know, specific situations. But if the young person is persistent and insistent around their gender identity, then that’s something that yeah, we need to listen to. I’m afraid I don’t have time to like fully go into that, because I’d love to also hear a bit more about what Scottish Parliament is saying.”

forwomen.scot/13/12/2020/george-watsons-college-staff-transgender-training/#more-2931

Now that is of course a bastardisation of the Dutch Protocol, but if we play along and go with it, it does indicate that despite earlier mention in the training about keeping quiet about name/pronoun changes from parents without the child’s permission (and in their guidance), they seem to expect teachers to hold off until the child is showing persistence and insistence. How does a teacher make that judgment without parental involvement?

(Am intentionally ignoring all the other issues about who defines timescales for persistency etc, am more making the point that even LGBTYS don’t have their story straight)