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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Britain needs more trans people in public life, including the Commons

247 replies

Igneococcus · 03/07/2021 05:52

Says Lord Herbert, Boris Johnson's first special envoy on LGBT rights:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0e8d186e-db6a-11eb-8f14-0bb645f59db0?shareToken=8cf210f54c9d71aa462bb34a9c3e2aa7

OP posts:
SD1978 · 04/07/2021 01:26

He's the LGBTQ envoy, and yet again only the T in that matters. All that's discussed it T rights and representation. The rest of the 'rainbow' needs to stay quiet and support. Bloody sick of it.

Aparallaxia · 04/07/2021 01:31

Miskirsky: You say, 'I'm sure you didnt mean offence, but I and many others in the community take issue with the use of the phrase 'trans debate'. There is no debate, I exist and my identity as a woman is recognised and protected under law.'

I disagree. There is a debate. First, a many-sided one about hard-won women's rights and women's spaces; about gay and lesbian and bisexual identities (very roughly: men who like men's bodies but are definitely men, women who like women's bodies but are definitely women, and people who like both); and generally about the relation between sex and gender. There are biological differences between men and women that go beyond external appearance; that is why there is a debate about women's sports in particular. There is a further debate in psychology and neuroscience about how far what we generally consider to be "masculine" or "feminine" behaviour is firm-wired into men or women even from before birth, from when testes develop in some week 7 fetuses, thanks to the Y chromosome. Historians and anthropologists can easily provide evidence that at least some such behaviours are malleable and culture-specific; developmental psychologists will offer evidence that male babies and female babies are already doing things differently; evolutionary psychology, if you think that's a Thing, will ask how males and females tried to game the system in their favour.

These are all questions that bear on the debate—and this is really what I mean by "the trans debate"—whether trans women are women and trans men are men. This is not about whether you exist. It's about whether I exist. If it's not being XX that makes me a woman, and it's not having these instead of those appendages or internal organs, then what makes me a woman? If it's behaviour and appearance that is male or female by convention, I'd like to know which conventions we are going to abide by, and why; I would probably fail on some counts. If it's some feeling that I have, some privileged access I was born with, then I will fail, because I have no such feeling. My awareness that I am female is something I have acquired through lived experience, just like my awareness that I am not conventionally feminine in some ways.

It's not that I questioned whether I was a woman at some point on this journey. I put my panties on both legs at a time. I used to have periods and period pain and I had treatment for pre-cancerous changes of the cervix. I go for mammograms. I used to get whistled at walking past building sites. Now I'm on HRT and worrying about hair thinning and wrinkles.

But I never wanted kids, right from when I knew it was an option. (People said sagely, 'Oh, you'll change your mind when you meet the right man!', and I would think, 'Well, no, actually, I won't', and I didn't.) I'm not good with kids either. And I was once told by a distinguished feminist, after some searching but I thought fair questioning of a candidate for an early-academic career post at the institution we both taught at, that I had been 'too harsh and too aggressive, too masculine'. I was stunned. (The recent debate in philosophy has opened my eyes to problems I didn't suffer from, perhaps because I was so "masculine"; I don't really know.) But if I felt discomfort over these things, it was not because I felt like a man trapped in a woman's body: it was because I was being judged by standards that had force and merit by statistical regularity at best and mere convention at worst.

I've gone on far too long, sorry.

One last point: you talk about 'presenting as femme'. May I ask what this means? This is a genuine question, not an arch or sarcastic one. Is the opposite still 'butch', as it was in my distant youth? (I don't even know if lesbians still talk this way about themselves as they did back then.)

Tibtom · 04/07/2021 01:46

[quote Miskirsky]@NiceGerbil

You are becoming quite antagonistic. I will politely ask you to dial it back a notch.

Maybe putting it in a real context will help identify my position.

I am post GCS, and my body and my lived experience is as a woman. Should I be in the women's changing rooms and toilets? My answer is yes. There is no argument I can see as to why I shouldnt.

Let's say I hadnt have GCS, I've been on HRT for years, and my body and my lived experience is as a woman. Should I use the women's toilets - yes. There is no chance of the appendage being seen or making anyone uncomfortable. Should I use the women's changing rooms - yes, so long as I am being respectful and attempting to minimise the discomfort of others (without, on the flipside forcing myself into being ashamed of my body).

Let's say I'm in early transition, I'm presenting as female, I've only been on HRT a short while, but my body is too femme to comfortably exist in the mens room. Would I use gender-neutral or private facilities if they are available, yes. Its easier for everyone. If they were not available, would I use the women's? Yes, but also in a respectful way to minimise the discomfort of others.

Let's say I'm pre-everything and just out of the closet, not presenting as femme yet. I'm going to use gender neutral facilities, and if they arent available, the mens room. Because I'm likely to be safe for now there, and the discomfort of others is minimal.

The goalposts move because both my safety and the likely discomfort of others move during transition. Smile

Do I think the fear is totally unfounded, no. Do I think it is wholly blown out of proportion for the purposes of fearmongering and suppressing trans rights. Yes.[/quote]
There is nothing in this statement to suggest your lived experience is that of a woman. All I see here is male entitlement.

Tibtom · 04/07/2021 01:57

And it is not just that I do not want to see a penis; I DO NOT CONSENT to getting undressed in front of males however they identify and whatever medication or cosmetic surgery they may have had. In real life men never pass as female - you just need to see them walk. A transwomen would never know what it is like to be in a female space as they can never be in one. They can only destroy female spaces by making them mixed sex and women always react differently as soon as that happens.

OnTheSeaShore · 04/07/2021 02:08

Yes exactly this.

It's irrelevant what the man wants here. He may not remove women's rights to satisfy his own desire to present differently.

My right to safety and dignity trump that.

NiceGerbil · 04/07/2021 02:14

@SD1978

He's the LGBTQ envoy, and yet again only the T in that matters. All that's discussed it T rights and representation. The rest of the 'rainbow' needs to stay quiet and support. Bloody sick of it.
He shares his own story as a gay man and how he felt and the various stages of his life - it's an engaging and interesting read.

And then he talks about. Not gay men. Not lesbians. Not the ongoing hostility/ invisibility etc of bi people.

But just about trans people.

It's such a weird and widespread phenomenon.

I used to go as an ally to the LGBT+ industry group.

There would always be great speakers from the industry talking about their experiences as gay men/ lesbians with growing up in various countries, how things were years ago, all sorts of stuff.

Really powerful. All about homosexuality.

And then at the end there would be a speaker usually from stonewall who would talk about how things were really awful for trans people and say some stats (that I now know were rubbish). And all of the room would shake their heads in disgust at that treatment. Get pretty angry and upset.

I mean to you can't obviously always notice a trans person but I'm relatively confident there weren't any. Certainly there was never a trans speaker.

But all of these ernest lovely crowd felt that their issues were nothing compared, and that was the most important issue. By far.

I found it confusing and sad really.

This was about 5 years ago (I've changed jobs now).

NiceGerbil · 04/07/2021 02:20

The only person I know in real life who is totally twaw is a lovely woman. We agree on loads of feminist stuff. She's black and in the LGB.

she's got a total blind spot.

I think that, assume that. The idea that this group is in s terrible position. It's like section 28 again. Etc. Just hooks in emotionally and that's that.

The incursions into, and the theft and repurposing / reversal. Of arguments that were composed by LGB activists, feminists, anti racism groups, and those who advocate for people with DSDs. And deploying them against the groups who created them. Is just appalling, to me.

Aparallaxia · 04/07/2021 02:57

@NiceGerbil

Not read that long post but

'You don't know what it means to be female'

Woooooah hold up there.

Can you expand on this? Do you mean globally?

When you say female do you mean human female, or something else?

I try to explain what I meant by that in another post. It may have sounded a bit weird in isolation. The short answer would certainly include biology. But I don't think my being female is exhausted by being XX and not XY, any more than it is by stereotypically "female" activities or attitudes. It's far more complex than that. Yet now we have trans women who don't have the biology, and yet they claim they do know what it is to be a woman.
NiceGerbil · 04/07/2021 03:19

I don't think you wrote that did you, it was someone else.

Anyway.

You're conflating sex and gender id I think?

Female is sex. Even most (not all!) trans activists agree on that. The ones who are born without a penis. The vulva people.

Sex role/ stereotype is societal. Changes over time. And is different all over the world. They are enforced to varying degrees but are enforced. Those who don't conform are usually seen to be unusual/ different.

I'm not sure what you mean by complicated. Sounds like you might have an internal sense of gender? Dunno.

Our biology is the reason for our oppression around the world and through history. Female is the ones born with a vulva who the vast majority of the time get periods boobs and can get pregnant. No more, no less.

AnyOldPrion · 04/07/2021 05:35

”Hi - some of your language here came across slightly problematic and also confusing. I've quoted the below bits I'm responding to, but I've edited slightly without altering the content of your argument”

”I'm not sure what you are driving at, but I dont think your arguments are likely to be in good faith.”

”I'm sure you didnt mean offence, but I and many others in the community take issue with the use of the phrase 'trans debate'. There is no debate,”

”You are becoming quite antagonistic. I will politely ask you to dial it back a notch.”

NiceGerbil is becoming antagonistic?

NiceGerbil has been astonishingly restrained throughout, despite your accusations and your continual attempted tone-policing. You actually chose to change the words she had carefully selected on a feminist board where posts are already heavily restrained by arbitrary rules.

If you do meet with antagonism from women, it’s hardly surprising given how often you correct us.

Lonel · 04/07/2021 07:22

@miskirsky I don't find your arguments very coherent.

Earlier on you talk about what is statistically relevant when it comes to safety and say tw can't use male facilities because it's dangerous. But then you say that women should get used to trans bodies in female spaces whether they pass or not. So basically you don't believe in single sex spaces but are ok sharing with some males. So use the male facilities then? Women don't want to share with any males.

You also say that tw should use female spaces even if they don't pass despite the fact that you know this makes women uncomfortable. Can't you see how selfish this is? Women are 50% of the population yet you are prioritising tw again? It seems to me that you are prepared to give up absolutely nothing but expect women to give up everything. Where's the compromise?

Lonel · 04/07/2021 07:30

That really surprises me. I transitioned over 20 years ago, have lived in several cosmopolitan cities and besides a few close friends and the odd trans/lgbt event I can honestly say, I barely ever see another trans person in my day to day life.
I work in Education and see hundreds of students so have met several (male and female) who are trans. I also used to work in psychiatric care- different demographic but again, quite a few trans women there.

Tanith · 04/07/2021 09:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Redapplewreath · 04/07/2021 09:33

If you wish to police women's tone and require respect from them, then I would suggest not using a patronising tone yourself, nor talking down, as many women will read it as paternalistic and it is not a type of tone used from one woman to another.

No, you do not get to belittle and dismiss women's needs, feelings and issues when you ask for them to be explained, while requiring women to unconditionally accept and nurture your needs, feelings and issues. I notice no one here has been rude enough to try and deny your concerns and feelings, or to tell you it never happens/it's in tiny enough numbers that it doesn't matter and you're fear mongering to say it matters to you.

No, you do not get to define your reality where women don't have issues or needs, these things don't happen at all, if they do they're too tiny to care about (including serious sexual assault) and expect everyone else to accept it as their truth too. Have your own reality by all means, but female reality is for many females very different and they matter too.

No, women having problems with mixed sex spaces is not something they do purely out of some mischievous desire to annoy you. Those women and their inner lives and experiences continue to exist after you've walked out of the room. And yes, women have the same experience of feeling and the same rights you do; they're not children or a kind of hamster who don't really experience feelings as much as real people and can be dismissed on those grounds.

Pretty much you have stated exactly what you said was untrue in my first reply to you:

Right are pie - your choices and preferences and needs cannot be met without 'normalising' (women surrendering and getting used to) the loss of single sex privacy, dignity, safety and autonomy/consent.

For you to have it, means women must lose it. You wish them to just accept this loss nicely. You frame women protesting and resisting this as their misbehaviour.

The reason you see it as your honest right to treat women like this, in a much lesser way than you expect them to treat you, has nothing at all to do with gender. You can't really use that as an excuse here.

And this, in summary, is why women need to repeatedly appeal to law because these matters cannot be sorted by those who have a powerful vested interest in minimising and dismissing the voices and equality of women to achieve what they so very much want. It has to be settled by objective forces with equal care for both parties. And that's not easy in a patriarchy. And to return to the OP from this major derailment, this is why I would have serious concerns about the capacity of a trans MP to put equal value and care into representing female consistuents, because their personal politics almost inevitably come from this perspective that women's rights are wronging people born male.

littlbrowndog · 04/07/2021 09:35

From a transwoman

Britain needs more trans people in public life, including the Commons
toffeebutterpopcorn · 04/07/2021 09:38

John’s a good egg. I don’t suspect they will be around the at long though. Twitter doesn’t like reasoned voices.

Helleofabore · 04/07/2021 09:38

What I have read from recent posts here on this thread has been

The rights of females to single sex spaces, for boundaries to be lowered are somehow ‘earned’ due to someone’s decision that they should put in a great deal of effort to transition. And that those females who object are to be ignored.

That the trauma from males inflicted on children and women, is to be ignored and females should just get used to ‘trans bodies’. Including the growing bank of trans bodies that appears in porn masturbating in female single sex spaces or just in general. It is very easy to find fully functioning penises on a trans body all over twitter.

Maybe these are marginal cases too? They certainly get minimised by so many people trying to compel females to accept males into single sex spaces.

Even the male in the wi spa gets downplayed and the situation.

WHEN is it ever ok for a nine year girl in the USA to have a naked male slide into jacuzzi beside her in a single sex space? In whose mind is that actually ever ok ? And if you have said, it is just another type of body get over it… I would advise you to do some reading on safeguarding and the boundaries of others being respected.

The minimising of Karen White as being an error in a ‘young’ system was all that needed to be read though.

Females who are harmed in the course of another group establishing and having their needs prioritised over females needs are to be written off if it progresses the needs of this other group. n+1 isn’t it?

Lonel · 04/07/2021 09:38

@redapplewreath
Well said! This tights conflict CANNOT be resolved by females giving up their rights and males giving up absolutely nothing as per ducking usual. Campaign for your own spaces like women had to. I still can't see why that is not acceptable. Not what you wanted maybe, but that's called compromise.

Lonel · 04/07/2021 09:39

Tights...ducking...even my phone is trying to police my language. Grin

Helleofabore · 04/07/2021 09:41

@Redapplewreath

If you wish to police women's tone and require respect from them, then I would suggest not using a patronising tone yourself, nor talking down, as many women will read it as paternalistic and it is not a type of tone used from one woman to another.

No, you do not get to belittle and dismiss women's needs, feelings and issues when you ask for them to be explained, while requiring women to unconditionally accept and nurture your needs, feelings and issues. I notice no one here has been rude enough to try and deny your concerns and feelings, or to tell you it never happens/it's in tiny enough numbers that it doesn't matter and you're fear mongering to say it matters to you.

No, you do not get to define your reality where women don't have issues or needs, these things don't happen at all, if they do they're too tiny to care about (including serious sexual assault) and expect everyone else to accept it as their truth too. Have your own reality by all means, but female reality is for many females very different and they matter too.

No, women having problems with mixed sex spaces is not something they do purely out of some mischievous desire to annoy you. Those women and their inner lives and experiences continue to exist after you've walked out of the room. And yes, women have the same experience of feeling and the same rights you do; they're not children or a kind of hamster who don't really experience feelings as much as real people and can be dismissed on those grounds.

Pretty much you have stated exactly what you said was untrue in my first reply to you:

Right are pie - your choices and preferences and needs cannot be met without 'normalising' (women surrendering and getting used to) the loss of single sex privacy, dignity, safety and autonomy/consent.

For you to have it, means women must lose it. You wish them to just accept this loss nicely. You frame women protesting and resisting this as their misbehaviour.

The reason you see it as your honest right to treat women like this, in a much lesser way than you expect them to treat you, has nothing at all to do with gender. You can't really use that as an excuse here.

And this, in summary, is why women need to repeatedly appeal to law because these matters cannot be sorted by those who have a powerful vested interest in minimising and dismissing the voices and equality of women to achieve what they so very much want. It has to be settled by objective forces with equal care for both parties. And that's not easy in a patriarchy. And to return to the OP from this major derailment, this is why I would have serious concerns about the capacity of a trans MP to put equal value and care into representing female consistuents, because their personal politics almost inevitably come from this perspective that women's rights are wronging people born male.

Yes. This.
Helleofabore · 04/07/2021 09:53

The answer to me is that we need to normalise acceptance of trans bodies,

No. A male is still more powerful than a female in so many ways even after full surgery. And no one, absolutely no one, should be telling children and women that they should let down their boundaries for a particular group.

and provide gender netural facilities. However, there are currently people and groups who try and remove or prevent the spread of gender neutral facilities, which is just craziness in my opinion.

The statistics already show women are unsafe in ‘gender neutral’ facilities when there is no female only alternative. To deny this indicates that perhaps the safety of females are easy to dismiss if it is convenient to your needs.

Many people trying to prevent the spread or remove these gender neutral facilities are in fact arguing for female only single sex spaces to be in addition to gender neutral facilities. So, in effect make gender neutral facilities the third space or reconfigure the men’s to be gender neutral.

highame · 04/07/2021 10:11

Tom Newton-Dunn interviewing Lord Herbert today on Times Radio. It will be within the next couple of hours. I will be interested to see if Tom has picked up from the comments yesterday and will ask anything about women

toffeebutterpopcorn · 04/07/2021 10:20

I doubt it. They never do (apart from to pat is us the heads - we silly geese - and tell us not to be so mean).

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 04/07/2021 10:25

What I have read from recent posts here on this thread has been

Excellent summary, Hellofabore - and on the issue about nine year girl in the USA to have a naked male slide into jacuzzi beside her in a single sex space - I couldn't read the piece in the Times yesterday about the Children of God cult and what those children endured and their exposure to permissiveness and no sexual boundaries from such an early age.

All that coverage of Rivers Phoenix death and I don't recall anyone mentioning that he'd been brought up in that setting, nor that he'd been raped at the age of 4.

highame · 04/07/2021 10:35

Robert Jenrick just interviewed and Tom Newton-DUnn asked hm about Liz Truss's 'women do have vaginas' so I should think his interview with Lord Herbert will be interesting.

Jennrick tried to duck the question but not that much, he said that self-id needed great care and especially in schools, prisons, toilets, sport because of personal protection. He wanted trans people to have a happy life but have to be aware of impact on other people. The consequences need to be thought through. I think this is a clear indication that a lightbulb moment has happened and there is recognition of the conflicts of trans and women's rights. He didn't duck this last bit so I hope they are becoming more relaxed about women's rights, after seeing all the responses and uproar to Prisons.

Sorry, hope I'm not interrupting but if I don't get things down, they're gone

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