Britain needs more trans people in public life, including the Commons

[Igneococcus]

Says Lord Herbert, Boris Johnson's first special envoy on LGBT rights:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0e8d186e-db6a-11eb-8f14-0bb645f59db0?shareToken=8cf210f54c9d71aa462bb34a9c3e2aa7

@NewlyGranny

Let's have more LGBT, more ethnic diversity, more women and way fewer old Etonians for MPs.

Let's keep going until every group is proportionately represented. I'd be good with that.

I agree, given how governments of both kinds in the UK have used their FPTP majorities to uphold the class system and keep most in their place, PR is long ovdrdue.

Is this a prelude to the recently mooted and personally dreaded Blair return?

@Lonel

Hypothetically I guess there are trans women out there who make absolutely no attempt to present as female in the traditional sense, but I've never me them Really? I know lots who do not even slightly "pass". Would you say they should still access women's spaces? If so, why?

That really surprises me. I transitioned over 20 years ago, have lived in several cosmopolitan cities and besides a few close friends and the odd trans/lgbt event I can honestly say, I barely ever see another trans person in my day to day life. I 'd be surprised if that experience was unusual.

@NiceGerbil

In my experience, that terminology is used for those that believe that trans rights should only be for those that have had 'the surgery'.

Self-ID is more complex than that. Although the argument that gets amplified is that Johnny Pervert could self-ID as a woman and swan into the women's changin room for kicks, it's a total 'boogeyman' argument.

Did I 'Self-ID' before I had the surgery, sure - it was literally a requirement to get hormones. If I dont go to the psych saying I am trying my level best to live as a women with no support whatsoever, they won't let me transition.

Do I think those who have done or are doing the hard bits of social transition, HRT, and all the other gubbins but havent had GCS also be able to self-ID? Absolutely. GCS isnt for everyone, there are lots of potential complications, not to mention expense and waiting lists.

I cant underscore this enough - transition is really REALLY hard. If you are on that path, you deserve those rights and that support, not just on the promise of GCS or once youve had it.

Yes, if it meant that people who are mentally unwell get help - just my own experience - every person I have met with dysphoria leading to trans has been in need of mental health support.

@Lonel

Hypothetically I guess there are trans women out there who make absolutely no attempt to present as female in the traditional sense, but I've never me them Really? I know lots who do not even slightly "pass". Would you say they should still access women's spaces? If so, why?

The other poster raises good points as well. I would howeve draw a distinction between passing, and trying to pass.

Passing 100% is often a privilege of genetics and or money. For anyone, getting to pass takes time and practice and patience. Failing to pass should not be a barrier if you are earnestly trying to transition.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

Yes, if it meant that people who are mentally unwell get help - just my own experience - every person I have met with dysphoria leading to trans has been in need of mental health support.

I wouldn't deny that but I'm more than inclined to say that many mental health issues that trans people suffer are the result of societal intolerance. When people from your nearest and dearest to the national press are driving home that you are a freak/peadophile/disgusting/rape apologist et.al the side effects can be a bit of anxiety nd depression of worse. The 'I am so I have' theory doesn't fly given the light of day.

Self-ID is more complex than that. Although the argument that gets amplified is that Johnny Pervert could self-ID as a woman and swan into the women's changin room for kicks, it's a total 'boogeyman' argument.

It is not.
One of Karen White's victims fears she may never be able to have children as a result of being repeatedly brutally raped by him while on a women's psychiatric ward.
White was put into a women's prison with no risk assessment, and sexually assaulted two women within days.
He is now serving a life sentence in a male prison.

You also seem to have missed the recent events in a spa in the US, which are escalating now that Antifa have waded in.

Failing to pass should not be a barrier if you are earnestly trying to transition.

So women must accept obvious males into their spaces because those males are making sufficient effort?

These are spaces that women fought for. Are women allowed to have a say in this decision that affects them?

@Thelnebriati

Self-ID is more complex than that. Although the argument that gets amplified is that Johnny Pervert could self-ID as a woman and swan into the women's changin room for kicks, it's a total 'boogeyman' argument.

It is not.
One of Karen White's victims fears she may never be able to have children as a result of being repeatedly brutally raped by him while on a women's psychiatric ward.
White was put into a women's prison with no risk assessment, and sexually assaulted two women within days.
He is now serving a life sentence in a male prison.

You also seem to have missed the recent events in a spa in the US, which are escalating now that Antifa have waded in.

Multiple failings in the Karen White case. Simply horrifying. But one horrible individual abusing flaws in a very young system does not make the case for throwing up broad barriers to equality.

I've only just had a look at the spa in the US. From everything I've seen it seems like a trans woman who had a penis, but was transitioning, not some perv claiming trans to get a look at naked ladies.

I've only just had a look at the spa in the US. From everything I've seen it seems like a trans woman who had a penis, but was transitioning, not some perv claiming trans to get a look at naked ladies.

What have you seen that suggests that? Was it climbing into a jacuzzi beside a nine year old girl that convinced you?

From what I’ve seen - nope none of that.

Miskirsky: you say 'asides the obvious appendage at the time, my body was 100% female'. I do not see how that is possible. If you mean your body looks conventionally female, having a penis is not conventionally female. If you mean conventionally feminine, having a penis is not conventionally feminine either.

And in any case, if you are born an XY male, then every cell in your body is XY (sperm excepted, of course). Having surgery to add, remove, or refashion body parts will never change that.

I have difficulty with the whole trans debate because I've been a woman for over 60 years and when I ask myself I still don't know what it means to be female. It's like being asked whether you feel human. Er... how could I know what it feels like to be something else? (Cf. 'What is it like to be a bat'?) Yet people who've never inhabited a female body are certain what it means.

Take this description:

'A highly rational person, scientifically minded though not a scientist, trained in dialectic, philosophy, and abstract thought, a military history buff, lover of war films, action flicks, film noir and sci-fi (including Soviet and DDR), interested in the Zodiac ciphers and the identity of Jack the Ripper, lover of cricket, used to be a demon at squash, bored by gossip, celebrities, and soaps; broad-shouldered, narrow-hipped, muscular... .'

Now this:

'A tidy housekeeper, doer of laundry, crewel-work enthusiast, cat-fancier, interested in clothes, hair and make-up (though crap at applying it), soft of skin and hair, hopeless at mechanical things above changing a plug.'

Both are me, as I'm sure you've guessed. One "gender presentation" is conventionally male or masculine, the other conventionally female or feminine. The world will be a better place when gender roles are more equally shared and eventually become blurred. That means men who have "feminine" interests can still be men without being ridiculed, humiliated, or worse, and mut.mut. for women who look or behave in a "masculine" way.

If you feel threatened in male spaces, then I am deeply sorry, and I hope you find safe haven soon. But please feel sorry too for the biological women in women's spaces who would feel threatened by the presence of a male body simply because (as you know from your own experience of biological men) biological men can be dangerous, especially in circumstances where women are most vulnerable. And that's 'can be', not 'are'—but how do we tell the difference before it's too late?

[quote Miskirsky]@NiceGerbil

In my experience, that terminology is used for those that believe that trans rights should only be for those that have had 'the surgery'.

Self-ID is more complex than that. Although the argument that gets amplified is that Johnny Pervert could self-ID as a woman and swan into the women's changin room for kicks, it's a total 'boogeyman' argument.

Did I 'Self-ID' before I had the surgery, sure - it was literally a requirement to get hormones. If I dont go to the psych saying I am trying my level best to live as a women with no support whatsoever, they won't let me transition.

Do I think those who have done or are doing the hard bits of social transition, HRT, and all the other gubbins but havent had GCS also be able to self-ID? Absolutely. GCS isnt for everyone, there are lots of potential complications, not to mention expense and waiting lists.

I cant underscore this enough - transition is really REALLY hard. If you are on that path, you deserve those rights and that support, not just on the promise of GCS or once youve had it.[/quote]
These goalposts are on wheels!

You said that as a transwoman who has had full surgery etc you should go in the women's as your body is most like theirs (debatable, you said earlier it's dick/ no dick, secondary sexual characteristics, but there are way more differences than that).

So which is it? Now you say that those who haven't had any hormones or surgery need to be there as well. That's contradictory.

The idea that if you have all the surgery etc you have earnt the 'right' to be in women only stuff is a terrible message. The surgery (as you know better than most people) is highly invasive, the outcome varies, and there are many risks.

It's a terrible idea to essentially say if you put yourself through that then... Then you will be fully what you want to be.

No.
Women's boundaries are not there as a challenge. We are 51% of the population, we are a discrete group and yet we now do not exist in law, have no legal rights or protection and no representation.

A naked man went into a women only jacuzzi and climbed in next to a child. No one knows if he is trans or not. And thats the problem.

No man can be challenged in this situation, in case he says he is trans. He may be telling the truth, he may be lying, no one has any way to tell without asking for ID and that's considered harassment.

And the biggest question...

'Although the argument that gets amplified is that Johnny Pervert could self-ID as a woman and swan into the women's changin room for kicks, it's a total 'boogeyman' argument.'

Why do you think that? This is the bit that troubles me. Denying that fears women and girls have based on their experience. Why do you think the fears are unfounded? I'd be really interested in getting into that tbh.

@AnyOldPrion

Failing to pass should not be a barrier if you are earnestly trying to transition.

So women must accept obvious males into their spaces because those males are making sufficient effort?

These are spaces that women fought for. Are women allowed to have a say in this decision that affects them?

@Aparallaxia

Thank you for such a detailed and well thought out post.

That was unclear wording on my part regarding the 100%, I was i guess framing how an outsider would have seen or described my body, if that makes sense?

Of course, HRT and surgery won't change my chromosonal makeup, but biological sex is not binary and not just chromosonal.

I'm sure you didnt mean offence, but I and many others in the community take issue with the use of the phrase 'trans debate'. There is no debate, I exist and my identity as a woman is recognised and protected under law. However, I think your issue, in how you've put it, is a wider problem with how issues are amplified in social media and in 'clickbait'-era news reporting. There's no nuance. You don't know what it means to be female, you just know what it means to be you, and you are fortunate that the 'you' you are happy with aligns with the body you were born in. I didnt have that luxury. I also dont know what it 'means to be female' in an abstract sense. I do know, however, that being seen as female, that having female secondary sex characteristics, that having oestrogen as my primary hormone, that living life as a woman in the conventional societal sense, are all part of what it means to be me. I deserve to have that without additional discrimination.

I completely agree that a world without gender roles, or with just full gender-fluidity would be amazing.

Of course I feel sorry for women who feel uncomfortable in the presence of a male body in those spaces. But I think this is what frustrates me about this whole thing, there is a real point of commonality and empathy that is lost in the noise as opinions are dragged towards opposing extremes, and this will only be solved by calm, nuanced, rational discussion. One such example being people understanding the changes in trans womens bodies on HRT. Yeah sure, a trans women may have a penis, but the fear that conjures is based on a lack of understanding, trans womens bodies are functionally and structurally different from AFAB bodies, but they are also functionally and structurally different from non-trans AMAB bodies as well.

Not read that long post but

'You don't know what it means to be female'

Woooooah hold up there.

Can you expand on this? Do you mean globally?

When you say female do you mean human female, or something else?

Women's spaces are for women, to allow us to participate in public life.

Obviously you exist. You're posting on here!

Where did this not exist idea come from its very strange.

Anyway. Previous question is important.

Also. No one has asked and no one wants you to describe your body. Jeez.

@NiceGerbil

You are becoming quite antagonistic. I will politely ask you to dial it back a notch.

Maybe putting it in a real context will help identify my position.

I am post GCS, and my body and my lived experience is as a woman. Should I be in the women's changing rooms and toilets? My answer is yes. There is no argument I can see as to why I shouldnt.

Let's say I hadnt have GCS, I've been on HRT for years, and my body and my lived experience is as a woman. Should I use the women's toilets - yes. There is no chance of the appendage being seen or making anyone uncomfortable. Should I use the women's changing rooms - yes, so long as I am being respectful and attempting to minimise the discomfort of others (without, on the flipside forcing myself into being ashamed of my body).

Let's say I'm in early transition, I'm presenting as female, I've only been on HRT a short while, but my body is too femme to comfortably exist in the mens room. Would I use gender-neutral or private facilities if they are available, yes. Its easier for everyone. If they were not available, would I use the women's? Yes, but also in a respectful way to minimise the discomfort of others.

Let's say I'm pre-everything and just out of the closet, not presenting as femme yet. I'm going to use gender neutral facilities, and if they arent available, the mens room. Because I'm likely to be safe for now there, and the discomfort of others is minimal.

The goalposts move because both my safety and the likely discomfort of others move during transition.

Do I think the fear is totally unfounded, no. Do I think it is wholly blown out of proportion for the purposes of fearmongering and suppressing trans rights. Yes.

Also - apologies to the OP for this getting dragged off on a huge tangent. I dont have anything more to say on this thread, but I'm really grateful for all the discussion.

The only rights being suppressed is those of women.

Sorry if you feel I'm being antagonistic. I was discussing and sharing my thoughts on your posts.

I don't think it's antagonistic to be woooooah at women on the feminist board on a female dominated website being told

'You don't know what it means to be female'

You must be able to see surely that statement will be challenged?

I also think that, genuinely. It would be a good thing for you to read your posts on the thread.

They are all about you. Your situation. What you want. Why you should have it.

This isn't about you. It's not personal. At all.

It's about the speed with which everything that used to be women only by law or very widely followed custom (communal changing, sports, prisons, provision of intimate care for vulnerable women and girls, inpatient mental health units etc etc) has been made unisex essentially. With no consideration, interest, concern or care for women and girls.

That's it. Nothing more. No hidden agenda. No cash from America. No desire to hurt o or kill anyone. A strong belief that no one in society should be discriminated against for how they look, their name, their sexuality, their religion etc etc. There are not many female only things. They are there for s reason. This is about keeping those spaces for the people who fought for them and need them. The people who are half the world and have been oppressed by the other half globally and for as long as we know.

I've only just had a look at the spa in the US. From everything I've seen it seems like a trans woman who had a penis, but was transitioning, not some perv claiming trans to get a look at naked ladies.

Not an iota of consideration for the women and girls who do not want to see a penis. You’re just like Laurie Penny, thinking the motivation or genuineness of the male is all that needs to be considered, rather than the rights of women and girls not to have a penis imposed upon them in that very real scenario.

It doesn’t matter if the penis on display belongs to Karen White or a lovely nice transwoman will genuine intentions of transition just trying to have a spa. Women and girls do not want to see it.

The fact you focus solely on the position and thinking of the male in that incident is very telling.