Britain needs more trans people in public life, including the Commons

[Igneococcus]

Says Lord Herbert, Boris Johnson's first special envoy on LGBT rights:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0e8d186e-db6a-11eb-8f14-0bb645f59db0?shareToken=8cf210f54c9d71aa462bb34a9c3e2aa7

Gender is the lens by which we make a judgement about someones biological sex, usually in adults, that judgement is based on secondary sex characteristics developed during puberty.
So what's your opinion on trans women whose gender presentation and secondary sexual characteristics all point to male yet they are self-declared trans women?

'Totally agree, we need diverse voices from across the gender spectrum. Trans people of all shades need to have a voice in a debate that is more often about them than involving them.'

Why do you think that is?

Are there any initiatives or anything to get those voices heard?

If I was forced to use a male toilet or into a male prison, I would be at risk not based on my biological sex at birth, but as a woman because of my gender.

Surely if you were at risk “as a woman” that would be because the men thought you were female? So not because of your gender?

(Off topic though, sorry.)

Why?

[quote Miskirsky]@Lonel

Yes. In that my biological sex at birth is completely unknown to anyone unless I tell them. Gender is the lens by which we make a judgement about someones biological sex, usually in adults, that judgement is based on secondary sex characteristics developed during puberty. The default risks to me and the hardships I face day-to-day are based on my gender, not my biological sex at birth.

If I was forced to use a male toilet or into a male prison, I would be at risk not based on my biological sex at birth, but as a woman because of my gender.[/quote]
Given that, is there any noise/ interest within the trans community that you know of, for tackling the massive focus on sexed bodies rather than gender ID in porn?

When it says I dunno. Lesbian, gay, men do this to erm. Well woman but the language is not like that! You always get the sexed bodies.

Is that on the radar?

@Redapplewreath

I'm really interested to know what rights you feel you are being asked to hand over.

The right to female only spaces, female only groups, prisons where female people have privacy, dignity and safety in a single sex space as opposed to imprisoned with male people a good percentage of whom are convicted sex offenders who are offending against female prisoners once accommodated in the women's estate, refuges where traumatised women can be in a single sex space because they are too afraid to cope with anyone present who they perceive as male, toilets and changing rooms and swim sessions etc that do not exclude female people who are dependent on female only spaces to be able to access due to disabilities, trauma, faith, culture, a need for privacy and dignity. For you to live your life as a woman currently means when you walk into a women's space, some women have to leave. And they do not have a choice of spaces; they're left with nothing. I don't see the kindness, the inclusiveness in this at all.

Surely the answer is to maintain female only spaces and provide additional mixed sex and gender neutral provisions alongside rather than just expect that these women have a responsibility to give up their access for people who were born male.

These are great points, thank you for sharing, and many are really too complex and nuanced to do justice here.

What I would say is that the prisons issue is extremely marginal. Lifting from a recent news article

^There are 130 trans women in the UK prison system and 119 of them are housed in men’s prisons, according to a 2019 Ministry of Justice report. Eleven are held in women’s prisons. The Ministry of Justice also reported 20 trans men – all of whom are in women’s prisons. Figures released last year stated that out of 122 reported sexual assaults in women’s prisons in the past decade, five were perpetrated by trans inmates.

Meanwhile, the MOJ said that 11 transgender women prisoners were assaulted in prisons in England and Wales last year.

This means that there is a reported sexual assault in a women’s prison committed by a trans inmate once every two years, on average, whilst a trans woman is the victim of a sexual assault in a men’s prison nearly every month.^

Refuges are a really tough one, i think the key element in your statement is anyone present who they perceive as male. Where do transmen fit in to this equation? Or butch women? I think from my perspective, the other side of the equation is if I am in need of those services, it is because of something happening to me as a women, not as someone born male. So, where do I go in that instance? Why am I turned away?

Toilets is a strange one to me. How would you ever know what I was born as through the cubicle wall?

Changing rooms is also difficult. The early days of my transition I got changed in the womens changing rooms, usually in a toilet cubicle or wrapped in a towel in the farthest corner because I was so afraid of the hate I would get, or how uncomfortable others would feel. However, asides the obvious appendage at the time, my body was 100% female, and I would also have made the mens changing room a very uncomfortable place, but at a much higher risk to my own safety.

The answer to me is that we need to normalise acceptance of trans bodies, and provide gender netural facilities. However, there are currently people and groups who try and remove or prevent the spread of gender neutral facilities, which is just craziness in my opinion.

Let's have more LGBT, more ethnic diversity, more women and way fewer old Etonians for MPs.

Let's keep going until every group is proportionately represented. I'd be good with that.

We don't recognise sex (gender?) by secondary sex characteristics plus presentation anyway.

I see this time and time again and it's just not true.

I think it means if you have breasts and conform to current social norms of feminine style then everyone reads you as female.

If you don't have breasts and style yourself as a standard man then people will think you're male.

That's simply not true though.

However, asides the obvious appendage at the time, my body was 100% female

Can you explain how your body was 100% female please?

Perhaps that would reassure women who might otherwise “feel uncomfortable”.

'The answer to me is that we need to normalise acceptance of trans bodies, and provide gender netural facilities'

Why not 'normalise' them in the facilities matching their sex? That would make everyone happy.

When women have said. Additional unisex facilities would be fine. Why aren't trans people fighting for them, stonewall and other orgs who currently are well funded and well supported could be pushing for this. But that's not happening. Why?

The idea that the only difference between male and female bodies is one has a penis.

Is one that has been around for an awfully long time and with various consequences.

But what’s a trans body ?

The percentage of MPs of various groups should ideally represent the population within the UK. This article makes a suggestion which would lead to some groups being over represented.

@NiceGerbil

'Personally, I think 3 trans men and 3 trans women sat in parliament would be huge achievement. That really would be hope over hate. The added bonus of Littlejohn, Liddle and Vine getting upset about it would go a long way too.'

Do you have anyone in mind?

That's the other thing. Given the nature of parliament, those who don't fit the norm don't tend to consider it. There are loads of barriers. You've seen the shit that female politicians get, and if they are black it is appalling. Death threats etc.

Women have been in parliament for ages and they still get way more abuse.

It's a big ask/ very brave thing for an opposite sex presenting openly to trans person to take on.

I would worry they would be seen as tokens (as women so often are) by those who don't think they should be there, and it could be counterproductive.

Of course anyone with the desire to represent their local area should though.

As with anything else, it means for everyone, the BNP had an MP I think?

Anyway. That's my thoughts!

I wouldn't have anyone in mind but I can't imagine for a moment seeing a trans man or woman as an mp in my lifetime and I'm only in my 40's. With the current state of the mainstream UK press and their ongoing moral panic i understand why there are very few trans men and women willing to open themselves up to the vitriol that would come their way. As for the abuse of women in parliament, you only have to look at Dianne Abbott. An absolute trail blazer in many respects but hated by the mainstream press. I suppose she makes some inadequate white conservative leaning men feel threatened and as such there's no shortage of opinion piece writers willing to uphold the patriarchy/status quo to degrade her in print. I think them attacking trans people daily in the columns offers them a bit of cover under the guise of supporting women's rights but the masks appear to be slipping more as time passes.

The answer to me is that we need to normalise acceptance of trans bodies, and provide gender netural facilities.
What does that mean? Normalise male bodies in female spaces? The answer from me woukd be no. And gender neutral spaces do not work for women. They are more dangerous and are not well-liked. It is quite offensive that you dismiss the prison issue as marginal. It isn't marginal for the women concerned. You do not seem to be taking women's considerations into account at all. How about campaigning for a third space?

Butch women are not men

Would a transman who has had hormones and full surgery want to be in a women's refuge? I've not heard views from them on this.

@HipTightOnions
GC would see me as male-sex and therefore belonging in those spaces, my gender and associated presentation would lead others to read me as female-sex and therefore place me at the same risk and harship as a born female-sex person in those spaces. I'm not sure what you are driving at, but I dont think your arguments are likely to be in good faith.

@NiceGerbil
But likewise, why not normalise them in the facilities that mostly closely resemble their own bodies? And as above, the risks to me as a transwomen are far greater in male-sex spaces than in female-sex spaces. Not because a need to normalise the acceptance of my body, but because literally everyone would say I was meant to be in the female space.

I suppose the idea that women who have flat chests AND adopt a masculine style are read by everyone as men, as mentioned earlier.

I increasingly come to the conclusion that those born socialised male/ or maybe because of the threats that we are told about constantly, have a very different ability to tell the sex of people, especially female people.

Tits/ hair/ skirt = woman.

They aren't the only things most women notice though.

@miskirsky
Your views only seem to be based on traditional gender presentation though so I'll repeat my earlier question:

So what's your opinion on trans women whose gender presentation and secondary sexual characteristics all point to male yet they are self-declared trans women?

@Lonel

The answer to me is that we need to normalise acceptance of trans bodies, and provide gender netural facilities. What does that mean? Normalise male bodies in female spaces? The answer from me woukd be no. And gender neutral spaces do not work for women. They are more dangerous and are not well-liked. It is quite offensive that you dismiss the prison issue as marginal. It isn't marginal for the women concerned. You do not seem to be taking women's considerations into account at all. How about campaigning for a third space?

Hmm.. maybe marginal was a poor choice of words, obviously for the women involved its not a marginal issue. I was just thinking in terms of the raw statistics.

Of course I'm taking women's considerations into account, I do that every day. I'm trying to add the alternative viewpoint.

It means what it says - normalise trans women in womens toilets and changing rooms, trans men in mens toilets and changing rooms. There is far more harm in enforcing the alternative approach, you put trans women at risk from cis men, and trans men at risk of making cis women uncomfortable. Unfortunately, as good as the idea is on paper, gender netural spaces dont work for trans women for the very same reasons they dont work for cis women.

your arguments are likely to be in good faith

I’m not sure what you mean by this.

I am used to hearing/reading that gender is one’s own personal perception of oneself as a woman/man (and I confess I do find this unconvincing - perhaps that’s what you meant?)

But if you are saying that one’s gender is the sex that other people perceive one as, that’s a different matter.

@HipTightOnions

Gender is that perception, but there is an outward social aspect to it. To put it the other way - If you want to draw a clear distinction between my biological sex at birth (male), and my internal gender identity (female), what do we call the fact that to anyone interacting with me their assumption would be to treat me (correctly, in my view) as female, with all the negative conseuences that brings in terms of patriarchy.

@Lonel
I think it depends, the early stages of transition are really difficult and awkward for that reason. Hypothetically I guess there are trans women out there who make absolutely no attempt to present as female in the traditional sense, but I've never me them.

You said
Unfortunately, as good as the idea is on paper, gender netural spaces dont work for trans women for the very same reasons they dont work for cis women.
You also said
The answer to me is that we need to normalise acceptance of trans bodies, and provide gender netural facilities.
So you are contradicting yourself. A third space is a good compromise imo. Why won't it work?

[quote Miskirsky]@HipTightOnions
GC would see me as male-sex and therefore belonging in those spaces, my gender and associated presentation would lead others to read me as female-sex and therefore place me at the same risk and harship as a born female-sex person in those spaces. I'm not sure what you are driving at, but I dont think your arguments are likely to be in good faith.

@NiceGerbil
But likewise, why not normalise them in the facilities that mostly closely resemble their own bodies? And as above, the risks to me as a transwomen are far greater in male-sex spaces than in female-sex spaces. Not because a need to normalise the acceptance of my body, but because literally everyone would say I was meant to be in the female space.[/quote]
Because more acceptance by men of those they see as different would help everyone! It's a total win win.

On same body types yours. You seem to be arguing that those who have had full surgery, and maybe other things (hair removal/ voice coaching.. not sure) should use female facilities etc. But that's not what is being done/ fought for etc. It's on self ID.

Are you arguing this with those who support self ID? FYI they would see your views as a real problem.. Have you heard the term trus*m? I think it's grotesque for so many activists to use that against those who have had full surgery and have views like yours TBH.

Before all this, women overlooked the very few transsexuals (as they used to be called). The changes to who is trans and what they should be able to do has really messed things up for them. How do you feel about that?

Hypothetically I guess there are trans women out there who make absolutely no attempt to present as female in the traditional sense, but I've never me them
Really? I know lots who do not even slightly "pass". Would you say they should still access women's spaces? If so, why?