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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irish Government to amend Equality Act

100 replies

saltedcaramelchocolate · 27/06/2021 09:45

www.gov.ie/en/press-release/24864-minister-ogorman-announces-review-of-the-equality-acts/

“The review will include the existing Programme for Government commitments on the introduction of a socio-economic ground for discrimination and the amendment of the gender ground
My understanding is that the gender ground is to be amended to include gender identity or to be replaced to simply be gender identity.
Public consultation to start at any time, presumably TENI and NWCI will be involved
Hmm

OP posts:
OchonAgusOchonOh · 04/07/2021 19:35

One more thing I thought of for the template - the importance of knowing sex for medical records.

I'll update the template shortly.

Also, thecountess.ie and radicailini.ie are worth looking at.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 04/07/2021 20:03

Updated template:

I am writing to you to convey my views on the government’s plan to update the equality act, in particular on the gender ground. While I welcome the review, I have some concerns regarding the rights of women under this act. At present, women as a sex are not protected as the discrimination ground is “gender” rather than “sex”. I would welcome the inclusion of an additional protection on the grounds of sex, whilst also providing protection under the gender and gender identity grounds.

The reason I would like to see the additional inclusion of sex as a protected characteristic is that, in a small number of instances, it is appropriate to segregate or provide facilities on the basis of sex rather than gender. If sex is not separately protected and gender can be self-declared, protections for biological women and girls will not be possible.

Some examples where I think protection on the grounds of sex is important include:
• Competitive sport – a person who has gone through male puberty retains physiological advantages over a person who has not gone through male puberty, even if their testosterone levels are reduced. This results in unfair advantage to those individuals and prevents women who were born female from achieving at the highest levels. An increased risk of injury is also posed to those born female in contact sports if competing against individuals who have gone through male puberty.
• Women’s refuges – women who flee domestic violence are usually traumatised. Allowing male bodied people into the refuges on the basis of having a female gender identity is likely to be extremely traumatic to these women. Protection only on the grounds of gender will not allow these women a refuge in a female only space.
• Prisons – the same arguments apply as for refuges. The case of Barbie Kardashian, who has a GRC, and is housed in Limerick Jail shows the need for careful thought on how to balance the rights of transwomen and women.
• Medical procedures – many women have a preference to be treated for certain conditions (e.g. cervical screening, mammograms, checks following sexual assault etc,) by another woman, while many men have a preference to be treated by a man (e.g. prostate checks). Additionally, people who are adherents to certain religions cannot be treated by a member of the opposite sex. If we are not allowed to request a medical professional on the basis of sex, we will have a situation where people will forego treatment, resulting in increased health problems.
• Data on sex equality – if we only gather data on gender (e.g. workplace, census, public bodies) we have no way of knowing whether men and women are equally represented or whether progress is being made wrt equality. Equally, we have no way of knowing whether transgender people are being discriminated against as the data will not distinguish between women/transwomen, and men/transmen.
• Child protection – at present, male trainers of underage female GAA (and presumably other) teams, must have a female present. As a male cannot enter a changing room, the female will deal with an unwell child etc. If we are only offering protections on the basis of gender, a male bodied person who identifies as a woman would be allowed to enter a female changing room. Many young girls are likely to feel uncomfortable with this. Obviously the converse is also an issue with a female bodied person in a male changing room. Additionally, children (and their parents) should be assured when children are on overnight stays that sleeping accommodation is segregated by sex and that chaperones are female bodied for girls and male bodied for boys.
• Medical records – know the biological sex of an individual can save lives. While an individual’s gender identity can obviously be recorded on records, failing to record sex can be problematic. For example, people who should be called for cervical or prostate screening may not be called, symptoms of a variety of diseases (e.g. cardiac disease) often present differently based on the individuals sex. Medical tests can be misinterpreted if the sex of the individual is not known. A rather start example of this a test for human chorionic gonadotropin. High levels in a woman indicate pregnancy, high levels in a man, indicate testicular cancer.

In conclusion, I fully believe transgender people should have protections under law. However, I believe that protections should be balanced to ensure we do not remove rights from women in order to provide those rights.

saltedcaramelchocolate · 04/07/2021 21:17

@NowYouListenToMeFella

Newbie to feminist boards, reading a lot but first post. Bit late to this thread. Will email my local TDs the template letter tomo.

As PP mentioned I'm rather disturbed at the fact young folk can change gender at 16 when we don't allow them to do much else.

Welcome to the board @NowYouListenToMeFella.
OP posts:
saltedcaramelchocolate · 04/07/2021 21:20

@OchonAgusOchonOh

Updated template:

I am writing to you to convey my views on the government’s plan to update the equality act, in particular on the gender ground. While I welcome the review, I have some concerns regarding the rights of women under this act. At present, women as a sex are not protected as the discrimination ground is “gender” rather than “sex”. I would welcome the inclusion of an additional protection on the grounds of sex, whilst also providing protection under the gender and gender identity grounds.

The reason I would like to see the additional inclusion of sex as a protected characteristic is that, in a small number of instances, it is appropriate to segregate or provide facilities on the basis of sex rather than gender. If sex is not separately protected and gender can be self-declared, protections for biological women and girls will not be possible.

Some examples where I think protection on the grounds of sex is important include:
• Competitive sport – a person who has gone through male puberty retains physiological advantages over a person who has not gone through male puberty, even if their testosterone levels are reduced. This results in unfair advantage to those individuals and prevents women who were born female from achieving at the highest levels. An increased risk of injury is also posed to those born female in contact sports if competing against individuals who have gone through male puberty.
• Women’s refuges – women who flee domestic violence are usually traumatised. Allowing male bodied people into the refuges on the basis of having a female gender identity is likely to be extremely traumatic to these women. Protection only on the grounds of gender will not allow these women a refuge in a female only space.
• Prisons – the same arguments apply as for refuges. The case of Barbie Kardashian, who has a GRC, and is housed in Limerick Jail shows the need for careful thought on how to balance the rights of transwomen and women.
• Medical procedures – many women have a preference to be treated for certain conditions (e.g. cervical screening, mammograms, checks following sexual assault etc,) by another woman, while many men have a preference to be treated by a man (e.g. prostate checks). Additionally, people who are adherents to certain religions cannot be treated by a member of the opposite sex. If we are not allowed to request a medical professional on the basis of sex, we will have a situation where people will forego treatment, resulting in increased health problems.
• Data on sex equality – if we only gather data on gender (e.g. workplace, census, public bodies) we have no way of knowing whether men and women are equally represented or whether progress is being made wrt equality. Equally, we have no way of knowing whether transgender people are being discriminated against as the data will not distinguish between women/transwomen, and men/transmen.
• Child protection – at present, male trainers of underage female GAA (and presumably other) teams, must have a female present. As a male cannot enter a changing room, the female will deal with an unwell child etc. If we are only offering protections on the basis of gender, a male bodied person who identifies as a woman would be allowed to enter a female changing room. Many young girls are likely to feel uncomfortable with this. Obviously the converse is also an issue with a female bodied person in a male changing room. Additionally, children (and their parents) should be assured when children are on overnight stays that sleeping accommodation is segregated by sex and that chaperones are female bodied for girls and male bodied for boys.
• Medical records – know the biological sex of an individual can save lives. While an individual’s gender identity can obviously be recorded on records, failing to record sex can be problematic. For example, people who should be called for cervical or prostate screening may not be called, symptoms of a variety of diseases (e.g. cardiac disease) often present differently based on the individuals sex. Medical tests can be misinterpreted if the sex of the individual is not known. A rather start example of this a test for human chorionic gonadotropin. High levels in a woman indicate pregnancy, high levels in a man, indicate testicular cancer.

In conclusion, I fully believe transgender people should have protections under law. However, I believe that protections should be balanced to ensure we do not remove rights from women in order to provide those rights.

Thanks for the template. I have contacted my local TD's too.
OP posts:
NowYouListenToMeFella · 04/07/2021 21:25

Thanks OchonAgusOchonOh and saltedcaramelchocolate.

GrainneMhaol · 05/07/2021 05:49

Article with information on this
womensspaceireland.ie/articles/should-the-government-give-men-the-right-to-use-womens-spaces/

merrymouse · 05/07/2021 06:24

How can this work in law?

Gender identity is personal and invisible.

People suffer prejudice because of other’s perceptions that they are male/female and the extent to which they are perceived to conform to gendered expectations.

Different groups may also suffer direct or indirect discrimination for practical reasons e.g. facilities designed for men may not suit women.

None of this implies any ability to see what is going on in somebody’s head.

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 05/07/2021 10:27

None of this implies any ability to see what is going on in somebody’s head.

Exactly merrymouse, it doesn't make rational sense. A person's feelings about themselves, are just that - feelings they have about themselves. It is not up to the rest of the world to validate that.

I get the feeling that many politicians are just trying to be 'down with the kids' by embracing this. Seeing the swell of support for same sex marriage and abortion in the last few years, they (wrongly) see this as the next civil rights issue and want to get on board.

All the while conveniently ignoring the impact this will have on women and girls. Because well, women and girls are expendable.

I was thinking recently about how gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are treated so differently. If a person is suffering from anorexia, and sees a body that is much larger in the mirror than the reality, the are challenged by the medical practitioners. They are not encouraged to continue starving themselves to validate their inner sense of self, because we know that is dangerous.

But with gender identity, they are fully endorsed to go down a path of sometimes irreversible hormones and surgery. Why is this?

'Affirmation only' seems to apply to gender dysphoria alone.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 05/07/2021 13:14

Two more replies.

FG (female) - exactly the type of cya, commit to nothing, response I would expect from her. Everything she says is considered from the perspective of how it will affect her re-election chances, which means she usually manages to say nothing while using lots of words. She said she will bring my correspondence to the attention of the minister and will revert as soon as she gets a response.

SF (woman) - a somewhat surprising response, given SF are totally TWAW. She said: "I wasn’t aware of these issues until now. I will take some time to familiarise myself with them. Thanks for contacting me in relation to this."

NowYouListenToMeFella · 05/07/2021 15:44

No replies from any of my four TDs so far.

I am going to share the womans space article with people. Fuck it if they think I'm a TERF and I should be kind.

Signed up to the countess.ie and will make friends with kids aware of the school toilet issue.

I can't get my head around how this is actually happening.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 05/07/2021 17:12

I'm still waiting on replies from Labour and two independents.

saltedcaramelchocolate · 05/07/2021 18:19

I got one from an Independent. Just thanking me, no comment but a very intelligent person so I would think understands the issues.

OP posts:
Mulletsaremisunderstood · 06/07/2021 09:07

Still no response here Hmm, apart from a ping back from one saying they are out of the office for a few days.

I emailed them a few months ago regarding Self ID and didn't get much either, so I think they either don't know or don't care Angry.

NowYouListenToMeFella · 06/07/2021 10:53

I got a reply from someone in the office of the FG TD. Contents have been noted and he will bring it to the TDs attention.

MiddleMary · 06/07/2021 11:31

This thread is a great reminder, I must send some emails too.

I sent a few before to senior ministers after Niamh Smyths Dail questions about the GRA but I never heard back. Have a feeling the ministers might not even read them. Good excuse now again with the equality legislation changes.

FionaMacCool · 06/07/2021 22:22

In light of this thread, I thought this was an interesting article prompted by the remarks of Josepha Madigan:
www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/minister-tells-dáil-she-is-survivor-of-sexual-assault-1.4613504

"Ms Madigan said there should be a full debate on constitutional reforms proposed by the Citizens’ Assembly on gender equality."

saltedcaramelchocolate · 07/07/2021 07:22

@FionaMacCool. Thanks for the link. It sounds like Josepha understands and, as a FG TD, it is courageous for her to speak up, especially when "under the radar" has been the policy up to now.

OP posts:
FionaMacCool · 07/07/2021 10:32

Yes, interesting and brave of Josepha.
( as a side note, on this board, I find myself siding with women that I wouldn't necessarily admire in other contexts e.g. Arlene F, Mary Lou's comments about her mother, and now Josepha).

It would be good if Josepha found her way to the thread about the letter to the Lancet, also seen here today.

NowYouListenToMeFella · 08/07/2021 17:42

Still no other replies here. They're some shower!

OchonAgusOchonOh · 08/07/2021 21:00

Same.

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 08/07/2021 21:31

Yeah me neither Angry. Do they think if they ignore us we will just go away? I'm so disgusted with the level of apathy about all this.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 09/07/2021 12:32

@Mulletsaremisunderstood - probably. After all, we're women. We should know our place.

NowYouListenToMeFella · 09/07/2021 17:22

It's very poor form. It's a huge issue for woman. To ignore it just shows that they don't care.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 23/07/2021 11:06

Just in case anyone has missed the post on this, sex-matters.org/take-action/sponsor-a-gift-copy-of-helen-joyces-book-trans/ are organising books to be sent to MPs etc. Obviously not much use to us but I intend sending a copy to one or two TDs and would recommend others do the same. I have also contacted TheCountess.ie to suggest they consider a similar campaign.

NowYouListenToMeFella · 23/07/2021 23:20

Thanks Ochon. No further replies here.

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