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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irish Government to amend Equality Act

100 replies

saltedcaramelchocolate · 27/06/2021 09:45

www.gov.ie/en/press-release/24864-minister-ogorman-announces-review-of-the-equality-acts/

“The review will include the existing Programme for Government commitments on the introduction of a socio-economic ground for discrimination and the amendment of the gender ground
My understanding is that the gender ground is to be amended to include gender identity or to be replaced to simply be gender identity.
Public consultation to start at any time, presumably TENI and NWCI will be involved
Hmm

OP posts:
Mulletsaremisunderstood · 30/06/2021 10:15

@TurquoiseBaubles

The ironic thing about all the quotes about lowering the age to 16 is that the age of consent in Ireland is still 17.

So at 16 you can't vote, drink, smoke, drive a car, get married, join the army, have sex, get a proper 10 year passport, book a flight, buy a lottery ticket, sign a contract or give blood. You also can't leave home or change your name by deed poll without your parents' consent.

You are, however, according to every politician in the country, old enough to change your name, the sex on your birth certificate and agree to taking experimental medication, as long as you say you are trans.

That seems fair enough Hmm

Is that right?

Precisely, this is madness. Why is trans the one issue where all safeguarding rules are thrown out the window?

We know that teenagers are impressionable and vulnerable and make terrible choices at times. We've all been there. Where is the protection from themselves in all this?

Annasgirl · 30/06/2021 10:33

Thanks @OchonAgusOchonOh - I hoped someone wrote a template - saves me doing it !!!

So, do we email all politicians (I don't hold out much hope based on the Prisons email response).

Should we do something more public? Not sure what, and perhaps some of the public groups are planning something, but we need to get the "plain people of Ireland" viewpoint across in public because that is the only opinion that matters to politicians.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 30/06/2021 11:06

I'd say email politicians to start.

What about thecountess.ie? That might be a good place to look.

MishyJDI · 30/06/2021 11:49

@OhHolyJesus

Shit.

Shit shit shit.

This is really bad news, worried and scared for the women and girls in Ireland.

But why? Inclusiveness will only benefit and make the women of ireland stronger against those holding them back. Gender ideology is great for challenging the patriachy and staid institutions.

Good news indeed! Let's celebrate it.

TurquoiseBaubles · 30/06/2021 11:54

How does gender equality challenge the patriarchy? Just one example of gender ideology being good for women and girls would be a good start.

Mermoose · 30/06/2021 12:09

OchonAgusOchonOh Does the Irish Times accept letters on things like public consultations, or do letters have to be referring to articles that have been printed?

OchonAgusOchonOh · 30/06/2021 12:19

@Mermoose

OchonAgusOchonOh Does the Irish Times accept letters on things like public consultations, or do letters have to be referring to articles that have been printed?
I don't know. I think you can write about anything.

To be honest, I would be a little reluctant to write to the times as I'm an academic and a coward. The university I work in is getting very woke. I am doing things like going on the equality and diversity committee and suggesting gathering data on sex as well as gender to ensure any discrimination is not lost by lumping transgender people in with men/women. I'm also stressing the impact on our muslim students and how their religious beliefs are protected. I'm hoping the subtle approach will get me somewhere as I know coming out vocally as gender critical will not.

However, if you want to use my letter above, feel free. I'll update to include the child protection issue.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 30/06/2021 12:25

@MishyJDI - can you have a look at the letter I posted above and tell me how losing our right to be seen as a separate sex protects us and other, more vulnerable, women?

Personally, I would like to see us in a situation where gender doesn't exist. You are male and want to wear a tutu and make-up? Fire ahead. You're just a man who likes to wear a tutu and make-up. You're female and want to drive a JCB? Fire ahead. You're just a woman who drives a JCB.

Feminists were making progress in reducing gender stereotyping. I think the current gender ideology is only increasing gender stereotyping and is forcing people into pigeon holes. In the vast majority of cases, your sex does not matter. How you present or what you like does not matter. Let's try and progress those attitudes and just stick with segregation on the grounds of sex in the very small number of cases where it does matter.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 30/06/2021 12:26

Updated letter:

I am writing to you to convey my views on the government’s plan to update the equality act, in particular on the gender ground. While I welcome the review, I have some concerns regarding the rights of women under this act. At present, women as a sex are not protected as the discrimination ground is “gender” rather than “sex”. I would welcome the inclusion of an additional protection on the grounds of sex, whilst also providing protection under the gender ground.

The reason I would like to see the additional inclusion of sex as a protected characteristic is that, in a small number of instances, it is appropriate to segregate or provide facilities on the basis of sex rather than gender. If sex is not separately protected and gender can be self-declared, protections for biological women will not be possible.

Some examples where I think protection on the grounds of sex is important include:
• Competitive sport – a person who has gone through male puberty retains physiological advantages over a person who has not gone through male puberty, even if their testosterone levels are reduced. This results in unfair advantage to those individuals and prevents women who were born female from achieving at the highest levels. An increased risk of injury is also posed to those born female in contact sports if competing against individuals who have gone through male puberty.
• Women’s refuges – women who flee domestic violence are usually traumatised. Allowing male bodied people into the refuges on the basis of having a female gender identity is likely to be extremely traumatic to these women. Protection only on the grounds of gender will not allow these women a refuge in a female only space.
• Prisons – the same arguments apply as for refuges. The case of Barbie Kardashian, who has a GRC, and is housed in Limerick Jail shows the need for careful thought on how to balance the rights of transwomen and women.
• Medical procedures – many women have a preference to be treated for certain conditions (e.g. cervical screening, mammograms, checks following sexual assault etc,) by another woman, while many men have a preference to be treated by a man (e.g. prostate checks). Additionally, people who are adherents to certain religions cannot be treated by a member of the opposite sex. If we are not allowed to request a medical professional on the basis of sex, we will have a situation where people will forego treatment, resulting in increased health problems.
• Data on sex equality – if we only gather data on gender (e.g. workplace, census, public bodies) we have no way of knowing whether men and women are equally represented or whether progress is being made wrt equality. Equally, we have no way of knowing whether transgender people are being discriminated against as the data will not distinguish between women/transwomen, and men/transmen.
• Child protection – at present, male trainers of underage female GAA (and presumably other) teams, must have a female present. As a male cannot enter a changing room, the female will deal with an unwell child etc. If we are only offering protections on the basis of gender, a male bodied person who identifies as a woman would be allowed to enter a female changing room. Many young girls are likely to feel uncomfortable with this. Obviously the converse is also an issue with a female bodied person in a male changing room. Additionally, children (and their parents) should be assured when on overnight stays that sleeping accommodation is segregated by sex and that chaperones are female bodied for girls and male bodied for boys.

In conclusion, I fully believe transgender people should have protections under law. However, I believe that protections should be balanced to ensure we do not remove rights from women in order to provide those rights.

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 30/06/2021 12:52

I wouldn't bother engaging with MishyJDI, they seem incapable of understanding the needs of women and girls and determined to see us all as bigots.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 30/06/2021 12:55

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

I wouldn't bother engaging with MishyJDI, they seem incapable of understanding the needs of women and girls and determined to see us all as bigots.
I would still be interested in them answering my question.
Mulletsaremisunderstood · 30/06/2021 12:55

That's a great letter OchonAgusOchonOh, very compelling.

I would be happy to emails TDs using your template.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 30/06/2021 12:57

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

That's a great letter OchonAgusOchonOh, very compelling.

I would be happy to emails TDs using your template.

It would also be fantastic if someone could use it (or similar) for a letter to the Irish Times. They have had two questioning articles recently so might be open to publishing.
Mulletsaremisunderstood · 30/06/2021 12:57

Ah but they don't answer questions, at least not in a logical coherent way that makes sense.
It usually goes something like 'blah blah inclusivity...blah blah you're all big meanies'..

Nothing to see here folks, it's all rainbows and unicorns, and anyone that thinks otherwise is being hateful.

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 30/06/2021 12:59

Sorry OchonAgusOchonOh, that was a response to your message of 12.55.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 30/06/2021 13:02

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

Sorry OchonAgusOchonOh, that was a response to your message of 12.55.
I assumed so.

I guess I think asking posters who disagree to answer questions or to defend their position shows who has a considered opinion and who is just sticking their fingers in their ears and going "na, na, na"

I'm happy to hear other viewpoints and willing to change my mind if the arguments make sense. However, I expect the same in return.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 01/07/2021 19:15

For more on Ireland and HCPs who think it's inappropriate to prioritise the desire of a woman patient for a female HCP for trauma-informed care:

And I’d really hope that if you did have Trans colleagues that they wouldn’t be outed to service users [as not the requested sex]. It’s essential that more patients and services users have a choice around their preferred caregiver but mustn’t facilitate discriminatory behaviour in practice

archive: archive.is/c2Gzu

Anyone startled at who wins out in this conflict of intersecting rights in a country with a lacklustre track record in women's rights?

OchonAgusOchonOh · 02/07/2021 08:56

That's what I'm afraid of.

ShortBacknSides · 02/07/2021 09:02

The groups facing most discrimination in Irish society are women, Travellers, and people with disabilities.

Yes @FionaMacCool you nail the idiocy of the current supposedly progressive thinking

The only way that one could see “trans” as the most-oppressed-evah is if one deliberately ignores women, ethnic minorities, and people with disabilities.

It is so extraordinarily blinkered, ignorant, and arrogant.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 02/07/2021 11:11

I've just sent an email to all my local TDs. I even sent it to the Sinn Féin one! Let's see what we get back.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 02/07/2021 15:38

Local FF TD has responded:

"Interesting points which I have noted."

His emails tend to be fairly succinct at the best of times...

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 02/07/2021 19:33

I've emailed my local TD's today with your brilliant letter Ochon, let's hope they actually take note or do something.

Although tbf I emailed them a few months ago about Self ID law and basically got tumbleweed Sad so I'm not holding out too much hope.

Grellbunt · 02/07/2021 19:36

As if they'd even need to be outed

NowYouListenToMeFella · 04/07/2021 19:14

Newbie to feminist boards, reading a lot but first post. Bit late to this thread. Will email my local TDs the template letter tomo.

As PP mentioned I'm rather disturbed at the fact young folk can change gender at 16 when we don't allow them to do much else.

NowYouListenToMeFella · 04/07/2021 19:28

Emails sent. Will update if any replies.