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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irish Government to amend Equality Act

100 replies

saltedcaramelchocolate · 27/06/2021 09:45

www.gov.ie/en/press-release/24864-minister-ogorman-announces-review-of-the-equality-acts/

“The review will include the existing Programme for Government commitments on the introduction of a socio-economic ground for discrimination and the amendment of the gender ground
My understanding is that the gender ground is to be amended to include gender identity or to be replaced to simply be gender identity.
Public consultation to start at any time, presumably TENI and NWCI will be involved
Hmm

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saltedcaramelchocolate · 29/06/2021 12:57

@Mulletsaremisunderstood. I was struck by the push to lower the age of consent too.
The mental health services in Ireland are horrendous. Chronic underfunding over decades means that it can't cope. With teenage mental health issues at crisis point, the sense of urgency by FG to validate gender identity to the exclusion of exploration of other issues is seriously worrying.

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saltedcaramelchocolate · 29/06/2021 13:02

www.sinnfein.ie/contents/57257

*. “I have noted with concern the backlash against transgender people in many countries around the world. Sinn Féin proudly stands with the transgender community. We reject transphobia here in Ireland and abroad.

“We want to see the Gender Recognition Act extended to trans youth and non-binary identities. We also want to reform trans healthcare towards an informed consent model.

"Sex and relationship education in schools must be modernised to reflect a greater diversity of gender identities and sexual orientations. *

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saltedcaramelchocolate · 29/06/2021 13:04

Aontu
aontu.ie/children-are-entitled-to-a-childhood-free-of-adult-gender-politics

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Cailleach1 · 29/06/2021 13:08

The Dáil is around 80% male, isn't it? I presume they couldn't give a sh*t about this. As long as their primacy is not affected. Same as when they oversaw women being effectively incarcerated and brutalised with the support of the state who gave funds to enable it. Or used the police force of the state to apprehend women who had escaped the homes and laundries, and escorted them back to be deprived of their freedom.

I'm getting a lot more cynical of these chappies as I get older. Same f*ckers as brutalised women in the past. But these bro's pat themselves on the back for being so progressive, don't they?

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 29/06/2021 13:20

Thanks for the link - I haven't really heard much about Aontú, what are they like in general?
It's heartening to see someone in politics point out the problems with this, I just worry they will be painted as right wing bigots and not listened to Angry.

From that SF excerpt it seems they have drunk the koolaid completely. They are all singing from the same hymn sheet (which I presume was provided for them by TENI)

Why the hell does non binary need to be recognised in law? Are they going to legislate for emo and punk identities too? Hmm

I just can't understand why they have gone along with this without any critical evaluation whatsoever.
No questions about WHY there is a sudden increase in teenagers and young people wanting to change gender, wanting surgery and hormones.

Why aren't children's groups screaming about this? Or are they afraid of being labelled bigoted aswell?

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 29/06/2021 13:27

Unfortunately, Aontú are against abortion and for a United Ireland - so not my political cup of tea.
However, as others have pointed out, perhaps we need to hold our nose and align with whoever we can on this Confused.

Just thinking out loud - I wonder if some of this is because of the two overwhelmingly popular referendums over the last few years...all political parties are now courting younger liberals instead of older steadfast voters.
Maybe they think these teenagers will vote for them when they come of age....although I keep thinking in 10 - 15 years time these former teenagers will be rightly asking how and why this was allowed to happen!
I guess to the innocent bystander this just seems like another gay rights issue...which it does look like if you happen to take a side glance at it whilst walking by quickly and not paying attention. So they want to be down with the kids and on the right side of history blah blah.

But there are so many holes in this...how can rational people just push through legislation without looking at the consequences.

Sorry just rambling now.

PleasantBirthday · 29/06/2021 13:33

Aontú are basically the SF version of the natural law party. It's a big NO from me there.

PleasantBirthday · 29/06/2021 13:34

Basically, if you imagine Dev in more modern glasses...

saltedcaramelchocolate · 29/06/2021 13:52

@PleasantBirthday

Basically, if you imagine Dev in more modern glasses...
😂

I can't see much from the Labour Party on this but I think Ivana has indicated she is TWAW?

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PleasantBirthday · 29/06/2021 13:57

I thought that the labour party were fully captured. I see Ivana as very much in the IT Women's Podcast school of Irish feminism.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 29/06/2021 14:12

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

Thanks for the link - I haven't really heard much about Aontú, what are they like in general? It's heartening to see someone in politics point out the problems with this, I just worry they will be painted as right wing bigots and not listened to Angry.

From that SF excerpt it seems they have drunk the koolaid completely. They are all singing from the same hymn sheet (which I presume was provided for them by TENI)

Why the hell does non binary need to be recognised in law? Are they going to legislate for emo and punk identities too? Hmm

I just can't understand why they have gone along with this without any critical evaluation whatsoever.
No questions about WHY there is a sudden increase in teenagers and young people wanting to change gender, wanting surgery and hormones.

Why aren't children's groups screaming about this? Or are they afraid of being labelled bigoted aswell?

Áontu are misogynistic shinners, although probably have some non-shinners too. There raison d'être is anti-abortion.
saltedcaramelchocolate · 29/06/2021 14:40

So basically we have the choice between those that believe that a woman's place is in the home, and those who believe that women need to shut up, be kind and a woman is anyone who says they are one.

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OchonAgusOchonOh · 29/06/2021 14:43

@saltedcaramelchocolate

So basically we have the choice between those that believe that a woman's place is in the home, and those who believe that women need to shut up, be kind and a woman is anyone who says they are one.
Pretty much.
PleasantBirthday · 29/06/2021 14:46

Yeah, I think that's the choice.

I feel terrible about not voting - I have never yet taken my duty and responsibility to vote lightly. Not that I'm not taking it seriously now, but how can a woman vote for someone to make public policy who doesn't even know what a woman is? I can't square that circle.

Mermoose · 29/06/2021 15:40

They're all terrible. I'm glad I can't vote in this one, the last election was the first in which I didn't vote and it galled me. Sinn Féin have absolutely drunk the koolaid - Lynn Boylan put 'trans ally' in her Twitter bio the day everyone started talking about Barbie Kardashian being in the women's prison. Sarah Durcan (Social Democrats) is TWAW and a while back accused a library of homophobia because it cancelled Drag Queen Story Hour. The group presenting it - 'Glitter Hole' - had as their Twitter profile pic a purple neon arse and there was a lot of inappropriate stuff on their social media. But in practice of course Fine Gael are as bad on this issue.

saltedcaramelchocolate · 29/06/2021 15:41

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

"Also 'international best practice' - do they mean the Yokakarta principles? They are not best practice by any stretch. "

This is a from the Irish Times article last weekend

The inclusion of the reference to Wpath came by way of Fine Gael, which cited Wpath in its general election manifesto at the prompting of its LGBT committee, according to a spokesman.

*. In his Wisconsin affidavit, Levine said he was a member of Wpath since the 1970s and was the chairman of its international standards of care committee in 1997/1998, but was no longer a member.

Since 2002, he said, Wpath’s biennial meetings had been open to transgender individuals who were not licensed professionals.

This limited “the ability for honest and scientific debate, and means that Wpath can no longer be considered a purely professional organisation”.

The Wpath standards of care are not applied in the national adult service where Paul Moran works. *

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saltedcaramelchocolate · 29/06/2021 15:48

From the same article

"Wpath was also cited in a HSE job advertisement in April looking for a child psychiatrist to work in Crumlin as part of the plan to replace Tavistock.

A spokeswoman for the HSE said the reference arose because Wpath was “referenced in the Service Development Model for Transgender Children, Adolescents and Adults, developed by the HSE quality-improvement division in January 2017”. The HSE spokeswoman said Philip Crowley, the head of the quality improvement division, was not available for interview."

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OchonAgusOchonOh · 29/06/2021 15:49

I've started to put together a letter. Can we maybe work together on something we could send to politicians? We obviously don't want to all send the same letter but we could do some form of variations on the theme. Feedback welcome.

I am writing to you to convey my views on the government’s plan to update the equality act, in particular on the gender ground. While I welcome the review, I have some concerns regarding the rights of women under this act. At present, women as a sex are not protected as the discrimination ground is “gender” rather than “sex”. I would welcome the inclusion of an additional protection on the grounds of sex, whilst also providing protection under the gender ground.

The reason I would like to see the additional inclusion of sex as a protected characteristic is that, in a small number of instances, it is appropriate to segregate or provide facilities on the basis of sex rather than gender. If sex is not separately protected and gender can be self-declared, protections for biological women will not be possible.

Some examples where I think protection on the grounds of sex is important include:
• Competitive sport – a person who has gone through male puberty retains physiological advantages over a person who has not gone through male puberty, even if their testosterone levels are reduced. This results in unfair advantage to those individuals and prevents women who were born female from achieving at the highest levels. An increased risk of injury is also posed to those born female in contact sports if competing against individuals who have gone through male puberty.
• Women’s refuges – women who flee domestic violence are usually traumatised. Allowing male bodied people into the refuges on the basis of having a female gender identity is likely to be extremely traumatic to these women. Protection only on the grounds of gender will not allow these women a refuge in a female only space.
• Prisons – the same arguments apply as for refuges. The case of Barbie Kardashian, who has a GRC, and was housed in Limerick Jail, shows the need for careful thought on how to balance the rights of transwomen and women.
• Medical procedures – many women have a preference to be treated for certain conditions (e.g. cervical screening, mammograms, checks following sexual assault etc,) by another woman, while many men have a preference to be treated by a man (e.g. prostate checks). Additionally, people who are adherents to certain religions cannot be treated by a member of the opposite sex. If we are not allowed to request a medical professional on the basis of sex, we will have a situation where people will forego treatment, resulting in increased health problems.
• Data on sex equality – if we only gather data on gender (e.g. workplace, census, public bodies) we have no way of knowing whether men and women are equally represented or whether progress is being made wrt equality. Equally, we have no way of knowing whether transgender people are being discriminated against as the data will not distinguish between women/transwomen, and men/transmen.

In conclusion, I fully believe transgender people should have protections under law. However, I believe that protections should be balanced to ensure we do not remove rights from women in order to provide those rights.

saltedcaramelchocolate · 29/06/2021 15:57

@OchonAgusOchonOh
That's fantastic.
I would also worry about safeguarding for children in regards to female chaperones etc. For example, currently male trainers in GAA (and presumably other sports) are required to have a female present when training underage girls. Also they cannot enter a changing room. So if a girl feels unwell it is the adult female who checks on her etc.

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OchonAgusOchonOh · 29/06/2021 15:59

@saltedcaramelchocolate - good point.

Also, overnight stays for children's groups (e.g. scouts, sports etc) where sleeping facilities can't be segregated by sex and you can't ensure same sex supervision.

TurquoiseBaubles · 29/06/2021 17:49

The ironic thing about all the quotes about lowering the age to 16 is that the age of consent in Ireland is still 17.

So at 16 you can't vote, drink, smoke, drive a car, get married, join the army, have sex, get a proper 10 year passport, book a flight, buy a lottery ticket, sign a contract or give blood. You also can't leave home or change your name by deed poll without your parents' consent.

You are, however, according to every politician in the country, old enough to change your name, the sex on your birth certificate and agree to taking experimental medication, as long as you say you are trans.

That seems fair enough Hmm

Is that right?

FionaMacCool · 29/06/2021 18:39

@OchonAgusOchonOh that's a great template. And the safeguarding suggestion by @saltedcaramelchocolate.

saltedcaramelchocolate · 29/06/2021 22:05

@OchonAgusOchonOh
Has the consultation process opened to the public?

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OchonAgusOchonOh · 29/06/2021 22:51

@saltedcaramelchocolate - Has the consultation process opened to the public?

Not that I'm aware of. First I knew of this was your post. I was thinking of emailing politicians.

saltedcaramelchocolate · 30/06/2021 07:29

Yes, that is a good idea

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