Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

[Clymene]

This is not a TAAT but that is about a horrible violent attack and this question is quite separate.

In any sexual encounter, do you have the right to expect the other person to disclose their biological sex if they visually appear to be of the other sex?

Essentially, does a lesbian have the right to be upset if the person they were female before they got naked has a penis?

Does a gay man have the right to know that someone who appears to be male has a vagina before he has sex?

Does the nature of the encounter matter? If it's a casual encounter, is the onus on the person who appears to be the other sex to come clean in advance, or is it the responsibility of the other person to check before proceeding?

@DoingItMyself

Or alternatively, you could get their consent before

Read my post, dear.

I did. Dear.

If I don't like what I find when people get their kit off, I don't beat them up. And I don't expect them to assault me if I'm not what they expected. I do try to give people a heads up... 'I wouldn't, mate, I look even worse with my clothes off.' That kind of thing.

If they go ahead anyway, would that be your big 'aha'?

@HIVpos

But the judge in the case said he thought that if you were going to have a casual sexual encounter then you really needed to find out the sex of the other person if it mattered to you.

I find this thinking not only wrong, but kind of strange, but I would say that there seem to be people who also think this way in other areas, not just about disclosure of sex. So for example people who feel that there should be no necessity to disclose HIV status.

@SmokedDuck well, for the well over 90% of those living with HIV in the UK, in the case of something like a ONS why would they need to if they are no risk to any sexual partner? Not sure why you're making this comparison other than both can be highly stigmatised.

Because many people consider both to be things that should be disclosed, and think it is highly immoral not to.

It's also the case that some groups, like SW, want to argue that both things are ok.

So a pretty reasonable comparison of an area of controversy over disclosure and it's relation to consent, my point being that while many people think it is obvious that you should be obligated to disclose, some do not, and they tend to feel that about a variety of similar situations.

I for one am fascinated by what random posters' hubbies think about this issue.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I for one am fascinated by what random posters' hubbies think about this issue.

I made a very strange snort noise when I read that.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I for one am fascinated by what random posters' hubbies think about this issue.

Me too! I particularly enjoy it on the feminism board. It's so refreshing when women share their husbands' perspectives. As if their own weren't enough to make an argument

I did that about the solicitor not noticing the penis

Loads of men say they would date transwoman if they was single funny that

They do, apart from Relationship Purposes Robin, who was at least honest, bless him

even if he is a solicitor.

😂 Ive had a kitchen accident through laughing too much😂

@Clymene, surely a man's point of view is particularly relevant in this case.

[quote Manteiga]@Clymene, surely a man's point of view is particularly relevant in this case.[/quote]
In which case?

On Mumsnet, on the feminist board, on a discussion of sexual consent?

No not particularly relevant at all. I mean male mumsnetters can of course share their opinions on consent but since "cotton ceiling" pressures are not forced on them I think is a very long way from particularly relevant.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I for one am fascinated by what random posters' hubbies think about this issue.

It's hardly unreasonable to ask for a male perspective when this debate was inspired by the experience of a male.

I asked my husband what he thought - but he couldn't get past the idea that he wouldn't have noticed the person was trans (a good friend of his is a transwoman) before engaging in the activity.

Its not just about genitals. I do not want to have sexual contact with someone who has a penis or has had their penis chopped off.

Do you have to ask everyone you are about to come into physical contact with "are you a man or a woman". What if they say "a 'woman', how dare you ask!, but still have a penis? Are they deceiving me when they actually believe they are a woman?

What if they are 'legally a woman' because they have a GRC, are they deceiving me? How is one supposed to determine the sex of someone you are about to have physical contact with? DNA test?

@WanderinWomb, I mean the particular case of a drunken man receiving fellatio from a complete stranger whom he wrongly assumed was a woman. No women involved at all.

surely a man's point of view is particularly relevant in this case.

One man's reported musing. It's strange how lots of men don't feel my woman's perspective is relevant to trans issues, if they know other women who disagree with me.

It's hardly unreasonable to ask for a male perspective when this debate was inspired by the experience of a male

You may not remember the opening of the deleted thread but I do, it was all about concerns over Judge Knott's statements .

Why not start a thread particularly about male family members perspectives on rape by deception or rape apologia re casual sex.

Maybe make a poll . We can all then provide answers on male loved ones behalves. Perhaps on AIBU for "exposure"
If you do it, I'll make some phone calls to chaps and report back.

I would argue that the situation doesn't matter. That there is no context in which is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex. Even if it's a quickie against a toilet wall.

I think the situation is very relevant. Firstly, can we be sure it's conscious deceit? In the situation of a quickie at a party/nightclub/whatever, when people have been drinking, is it realistic to expect the transperson to know exactly who was listening at any given point when their trans status came up in conversation? Does the transperson necessarily flatter themselves that they pass so well as to be totally indistinguishable from their transgender?

Secondly, is it wrong to expect a degree of personal responsibility here? We are not talking about someone engaging in an activity totally unrelated to sex, and finding sex forced upon them (e.g. someone being assaulted when walking home in the dark). We are talking about someone soliciting and welcoming sexual activity - is there not some onus on them to do some due diligence with regard to biological sex? Or, they can accept the risk - as countless people (me included) have accepted that there are risks in a casual encounter, taking appropriate precautions (e.g. condoms) - that consensual sex with a stranger, or virtual stranger, is never going to be a risk-free activity.

Why not start a thread particularly about male family members perspectives on rape by deception or rape apologia re casual sex

Or why not add it to the existing thread and sensibly keep the discussion in one place? We are only at 193 posts on this thread, so it isn't as though we are fighting for space before the thread fills up. Anyone who doesn't feel posters' male relatives' experiences are relevant is free to ignore them.

Eresh

Apropos of nothing. I did a snort, and said out loud "chinny reckon" at least three times this evening.

[quote Manteiga]@WanderinWomb, I mean the particular case of a drunken man receiving fellatio from a complete stranger whom he wrongly assumed was a woman. No women involved at all.[/quote]
That isn't in the OPs question.

No particular case was mentioned. It was a general question of consent.

Is there a particular reason you want to talk about one specific instance and from a male perspective on this thread rather than answer the question that was inspired by Judge Knott's statement?

its deceptive not to say . there was a case in the united states about a young transgender girl , she had failed to disclose to the bkoke she was seeing that she was actually male , she had not had surgery and had so far avoided any heavy sexual encounters by blaming her period , there was a party , his friends had made comments which he couldnt ignore , a terrible scene followed and of course her secret was out , its been a good few years since i watched it , but if i remember rightly she was beaten to death , it was on one of the crime and investigation serious on sky , it was so awful it really was . and she was very young too .

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I for one am fascinated by what random posters' hubbies think about this issue.

Oh quelle suprise. Strange how often spouse's views are trotted out in support of "gender critical" views for example with no such comment.

A man's reaction to this seems worth considering.

Me too! I particularly enjoy it on the feminism board. It's so refreshing when women share their husbands' perspectives. As if their own weren't enough to make an argument

The hypocrisy in that is breathtaking- but never mind- hypocrisy on here is hardly unusual.

The argument that a male perspective is irrelevant totally ignores context - as do many of the views expressed on this thread.

There seems to be a rigid definition of consent, and a rigid definition of whose view on what constitutes consent is allowable.

Its not a male context. Its a context from an Internet random claiming her husband thinks it