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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

419 replies

ArabellaScott · 22/06/2021 13:04

Hello, all.

What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like?

What subjects does it investigate?

What aims does it have?

Would be good to hear from those who didn't feel able to post before.

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 22/06/2021 17:35

@334bu

*And they could discuss that campaign in the new topic.* So Pumper you would post the thread , link to the campaign material and then tell us that we can't discuss it here? How will that work? If the removal of the word woman is relevant to the discussion about getting women tested for cervical cancers, why would it not be part of the discussion?

If the campaign

No, I’m saying if I had a problem with a smear test campaign including transmen, I’d post it in the gender debate topic.
BeBloodyBold · 22/06/2021 17:37

I read a lot about the recent scientific research into the spectrum of sex and there's mounting evidence it's not entirely binary (approximately 1% of people have chromosomes that don't match to XX or XY). Therefore I'm comfortable with a fuzzy definition of womanhood.

I wouldn't define myself as GC, and whereas I'm a big believer in free debate and diversity of thought, the Feminism Board has been overran with conversations about pronouns and "persons with wombs".

These aren't the most important issues to me as a feminist. I accept for GC feminists it is the most pressing issue, but it isn't for me. For me the most pressing issues are:

  1. male violence and toxic masculinity
  2. women as carers (through a few lenses: women as default parents / the low pay caring staff roles pay / women caring for adult parents)
  3. toxic positivity (for example #be kind) which is designed to keep women small and non-challenging.

I'd like to have a space where I could discuss these issues without every debate dissolving into a conversation about pronouns or definitions of womanhood.

dreamingbohemian · 22/06/2021 17:38

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

Personally I don't want my identity to be determined by my reproductive organs.

Oh and the absolute hilarious irony of this statement here. Yeah neither do we- hence wishing to be known as WOMEN and not menstruators or vagina havers.

So how does that work then?

You don't want your identity to be determined by your reproductive organs... so you insist that to be a woman you have to have female reproductive organs?

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 22/06/2021 17:43

Quite simply @dreamingbohemian I am a woman because of my biology. It's not my 'identity'- I don't 'identify' as anything. I'm just a woman.

And I want to be referred to as a woman. Not by my bodily functions or body parts. I don't want to be called a 'menstruator', a 'vagina haver', a 'person with a cervix'. It's gross and offensive.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 17:44

So how does that work then?

You don't want your identity to be determined by your reproductive organs... so you insist that to be a woman you have to have female reproductive organs?

No Confused but woman isn't actually an "identity" that you can choose from a list. It's simply the name for an adult human female, like a hen is an adult female chicken, a doe is an adult female rabbit or deer. So it's the name for the person that absent any medical issues or surgical removal, has said female reproductive organs.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 17:44

And I want to be referred to as a woman. Not by my bodily functions or body parts. I don't want to be called a 'menstruator', a 'vagina haver', a 'person with a cervix'. It's gross and offensive.

Exactly.

MarshaBradyo · 22/06/2021 17:45

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And I want to be referred to as a woman. Not by my bodily functions or body parts. I don't want to be called a 'menstruator', a 'vagina haver', a 'person with a cervix'. It's gross and offensive.

Exactly.

Me either
SelfPortraitWithEels · 22/06/2021 17:46

You don't want your identity to be determined by your reproductive organs... so you insist that to be a woman you have to have female reproductive organs?

Oh, come on. I won't speak for Strawberry but I believe that a woman is an adult human female. Someone whose body is organised around the production of large gametes, whether all the organs are functional or not. What's your definition? (Non-circular, please.) Someone with a feminine soul?

I fail to see how you can believe that definition is more reductive than that being a woman is feeling or behaving or looking a certain way.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 17:47

I read a lot about the recent scientific research into the spectrum of sex

As do many GC women on FWR, and you are overegging the pudding because it suits your personal view to do so.

Freebleweeble · 22/06/2021 17:47

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You were the perfect person to ask- because, gently and respectfully, you answers tend toward disowning responsibility.

And gently and respectfully, as long as you are not personally oppressing people of other races, it's ok for racial politics not to be your main focus. It's ok to think feminism is solely about women's rights and that modern theories such as queer theory and intersectionality aren't actually the last word on it.

I've said on many threads, the kind of people who boast about how "intersectional" are are often the kind of people who deny the importance, and sometimes the existence, of biological sex. If there are intersecting axes of oppression being born female is probably the largest oppressed group. The original concept was about being female and having that oppression compounded by other forms of oppression, eg black women falling through the cracks of affirmative action programmes benefiting white women and black men. It's been traduced. By holding males up as having an equal right to speak for and instead of females, even when what they say isn't in our best interest, it's lost its way.

Ok, but what if you ARE oppressing?

What if as a white woman, your consumption of goods and services requires suffering? There is an online calculator that takes an audit of your spending and ownership, and tells you how many slaves are in your consumption line.
My number was 147.
You can find it via google.

What if you are oppressing people of colour by failing to teach your children anti racism, so that they go on the oppress? Layla Saad writes brilliantly about the goal of becoming a good ancestor.

What if as a white women, you consume media that centres representation of white people and not black people and culture, this contributing to a media culture that represents humanity as white, causing black people to feel dehumanised?

What if as a white person you do not hold your government and corporations and education establishments responsible when they deny structural racism, refuse to teach black history, when black women are 5 times more likely to die in child birth?

Your question presupposes that you are not complicit, and I would say if you think you are not complicit, you are not looking hard enough.

Lastly- outcomes for non-white people, men and women, in pay, in life expectancy are all worse than for white women. If you hold feminism up as the fight for women, and you do not disaggregate data within women by race, and consider men of colour, you are upholding white supremacy. And white supremacy and patriarchy are the left and right hand of our system. If you fight one without fighting the other you will lose.

dreamingbohemian · 22/06/2021 17:48

How do you define feminism if it isn't based on sex?

I see feminism as the struggle to end the systemic oppression of women throughout the world.

I define 'oppression' very broadly, to include violence against women, the lack of equal rights, everyday misogyny, medical negligence, etc.

I also view 'women' broadly -- every race and nationality and yes, trans women as well.

You are free to define women narrowly if you want. As I said, I am not comfortable with arguments based in biological essentialism.

MarshmallowSwede · 22/06/2021 17:48

How can you have a chat about feminism without talking about women.. aka adult human females? This is exactly what turns me off about this wave of feminism. It’s a movement for women’s rights, but one isn’t allowed to say women. I’m curious what this is trying to accomplish if you can’t even name the very group of people the movement is for.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 17:49

when black women are 5 times more likely to die in child birth?

I think the reason for that is multi factorial, and some things are related to feminism, and some not. The issue itself, is undoubtedly an issue for feminism.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 17:52

You are free to define women narrowly if you want. As I said, I am not comfortable with arguments based in biological essentialism.

It's not "narrow" any more than the definition of a bicycle doesn't include cars, and therefore it isn't appropriate for cars to use cycle paths.

The essentialism, is all yours. I think you have a huge blind spot, and you don't actually understand why the women you are dismissing believe what they do about sex/gender.

ItDidntStop · 22/06/2021 17:53

Would you define the systematic oppression black people to include white people who identify as black?

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 22/06/2021 17:53

I see feminism as the struggle to end the systemic oppression of women throughout the world.

*I define 'oppression' very broadly, to include violence against women, the lack of equal rights, everyday misogyny, medical negligence, etc.

I also view 'women' broadly -- every race and nationality and yes, trans women as well.*

The thing is, as women have always been oppressed and discriminated against on the basis of their biological sex, seems a bit of a reach to include biological males, doesn't it?

SelfPortraitWithEels · 22/06/2021 17:54

Women of colour are included in feminism. Men of colour are not. I refuse to apologise for that.

That is not to say that they don't have equal rights to be free of oppression. But feminism is for women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 17:54

If you hold feminism up as the fight for women, and you do not disaggregate data within women by race, and consider men of colour, you are upholding white supremacy.

I don't have to consider any men in my feminism. Because it isn't about men. I completely support disaggregating all data by race as well as by sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 17:56

The thing is, as women have always been oppressed and discriminated against on the basis of their biological sex, seems a bit of a reach to include biological males, doesn't it?

I agree. I don't really trust people who glibly push the idea that biological sex doesn't matter.

Pumperthepumper · 22/06/2021 17:57

@MarshmallowSwede

How can you have a chat about feminism without talking about women.. aka adult human females? This is exactly what turns me off about this wave of feminism. It’s a movement for women’s rights, but one isn’t allowed to say women. I’m curious what this is trying to accomplish if you can’t even name the very group of people the movement is for.
Who is telling you you can’t say women?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2021 17:59

I also view 'women' broadly -- every race and nationality and yes, trans women as well.

The two things are not the same. Males are not female, and women are simply adult human females. Black women are female. White women are female. It's a category error to imply that excluding a group of biological males is the same as excluding any group of biological women, and plays into racist tropes about black women.

Waitwhat23 · 22/06/2021 18:00

I read a lot about the recent scientific research into the spectrum of sex and there's mounting evidence it's not entirely binary (approximately 1% of people have chromosomes that don't match to XX or XY).

Are you referring to DSDs here? Those with DSDs are genetically male or female, they just have a variance in sexual development. I think there might be one, exceedingly rare condition where this is not the case, but I don't think it would amount to 1% of the human population.

If there is research showing that humans are not a dimorphic species, then please post links, I'd be interested in reading it.

MotherOffCod · 22/06/2021 18:01

@DifferentHair

I think the point you are trying to make is clear. Please consider your work done.

Please respect this boundary, and take this conversation to the GC board. You know very well that there are many who don't want to hear it, and yet you are deliberately intruding on our space and seeking to disrupt and demean other conversations and views.

I won't be returning to debate you on any of this, so don't bother @ me. I'm familiar with your views and I'm not offended I'm just bored of hearing them.

I for one am very grateful to MNHQ for creating a space for other feminist topics.

Amen to this.

So many goady threads and posts from GC regulars still telling everyone else they’re feministing wrong.

Given how much they value respect for women’s boundaries you’d think they might be more willing to respect this one.

Or at least tolerate it.

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 22/06/2021 18:01

The two things are not the same. Males are not female, and women are simply adult human females. Black women are female. White women are female. It's a category error to imply that excluding a group of biological males is the same as excluding any group of biological women, and plays into racist tropes about black women.

Exactly- I wanted to say something along those lines too but couldn't word it as well!

picklemewalnuts · 22/06/2021 18:03

@Freebleweeble I've tried to find the calculator you mention. Can you be more specific about what it's called? When I used your words I got lots of financial planning type stuff, when I used racism slavery audit I got really interesting stuff but not what you referred to, and my initial search terms got me something about white fragility and check your privilege.

It sounds really interesting- I use eco audits quite often, what you describe is new to me.

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