So, what is 'non gc' feminism?

[ArabellaScott]

Hello, all.

What does feminism that isn't about sex/gender look like?

What subjects does it investigate?

What aims does it have?

Would be good to hear from those who didn't feel able to post before.

@dreamingbohemian thank you, you expressed the point I was trying to make 1000x more eloquently than I did.

I mean, who gave GC feminists the right to decide who a woman is? You are entitled to youropinionas are the rest of us. Personally I don't want my identity to be determined by my reproductive organs. I find the biological essentialism of GC feminism very disturbing and I want no part of it. But I am still a feminist, someone fighting back against misogyny and patriarchy every chance I get.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion of what a woman is, Bohemian , Cod - but what is it? You haven't said, and presumably you know who it is you're fighting for so passionately.

Who do you all think put pressure on Mumsnet to make this change. Really?

Btw the word women has been around for a long time and has meant sex

It’s not GC feminists changing it it’s men

young girls are being hyper-sexualised

Yes they are which is a big part of why so many are opting out via dangerous hormones and surgeries. You don't think that should be addressed as part of the wider problem including pornography?

I mean, who gave GC feminists the right to decide who a woman is?

Who decides then? Men? The word woman didn't become untethered from female until some men decided they wanted it to be.

Personally I don't want my identity to be determined by my reproductive organs.

Good to know you won't be calling us vagina people, uterus havers, cervix havers, birthing bodies and menstruators.

Not the act of - but woman - female sex

I mean, who gave GC feminists the right to decide who a woman is? You are entitled to youropinionas are the rest of us. Personally I don't want my identity to be determined by my reproductive organs.

So how do you determine your sex then?

White supremacy and patriarchy are like two sides of the same coin, but often white women fight one, while upholding the other and that is why feminism has to look at both systems if it is to succeed.

@Freebleweeble I couldn't agree more, and I hope people will take some time to look into this if they have not done so before

I mean, who gave GC feminists the right to decide who a woman is? You are entitled to youropinionas are the rest of us.

I'm guided by science. It's not actually an opinion but a fact.

Even if I'm wrong, there's no harm in me being able to have a conversation about the feminist issues that concern me without going back to first principles and debating what being a woman is.

It's fundamental to advocating for the rights of a particular group to understand what the group is, what it isn't, in order to not get derailed by demands that have nothing to do with the group, and aren't in the best interests of its members.

Funny.. it’s seems they are as quiet as church mice.

@BeBloodyBold the Spectrum of Sex appears to be a discussion of various types of 'intersex' conditions with several personal accounts at the end and is written largely by an intersex activist and scholar.

You might want to Google Russell's teapot theory.

Can someone explain to me why Men Right’s Activists aren’t having debates with trans men about what a man is? I mean how can they fight for their rights if they don’t know what a man is? It’s also weird how similar the arguments of the pro trans is to the MRA activists.. isn’t that funny ladies?

What’s also funny .. It’s only ever women being asked to change our language on how we describe ourselves, give up our safe spaces, move aside for men in our sports.

Weird isn’t it how men never ever seem to have to debate what a man actually is? We all know what a man is. But a woman.. we can’t trust science!

Exactly! Think Buffalo Bill from silence of the lambs. Woman is not a costume.

Completely agree MarshmallowSwede

They also often say if lesbians are allowed in female spaces, why not heterosexual males who identify as lesbian women, as if we are the same as heterosexual males. They have no idea how misogynistic, racist and homophobic they come across to anyone listening to them.

My biological sex is female. I don't think 'woman' is as simple as biological sex, that is where we differ obviously.

I think the definition of 'woman' is currently in flux, that is why we are all having such fierce debates about it. This is a normal part of the norm life cycle -- the contestation over how to define social norms. At some point a consensus will re-establish itself.

I suppose for me a working definition would be anyone who lives their life as an adult human female, whether they were born as such or not. Yes, there is a certain fluidity to the definition but I think that's okay, this is normal for most aspects of identity.

I mean, can you define British? Who is a British person? What if they are born abroad to British parents, can they still be British? What if they come to Britain in their 30s and live here for years, can they become truly British? Interestingly, on that last question, some British people would say yes and some would say no.

And yet, despite this apparent muddiness, there is not really a problem in understanding what we mean when we say things like, we want to improve the lives of British people, or we want to help British children get a better education. We don't all stop and say hang on, how are you defining British? We focus on the main issue.

I think that's really what feminists like me want. We just want to get on with things. There is not much confusion, in real life, about what a woman is or what we mean when we talk about women's rights. Trans women are a tiny minority of women in the UK. Yes, there are important issues around inclusion, but these are not insurmountable.

• Suffocating is a great word for how it’s felt, increasingly, for years, and it’s a huge relief to be finally getting a space that’s (intended to be) free from that lens and narrative.

I’ve longed for space to post without bracing for attack, insults, brigading and bullying, and to be able to express and discuss inclusive feminism without having to either tacitly condone hostility towards trans people or offer myself as tribute for a pile on. *

MoC: Sorry, but if you want to discuss 'inclusive feminism' you'll have to do so on the 'Sex & Gender Debate' board. Feminism Chat is for everything BUT the inclusivity debate.

I think the definition of 'woman' is currently in flux, that is why we are all having such fierce debates about it. This is a normal part of the norm life cycle -- the contestation over how to define social norms. At some point a consensus will re-establish itself

It’s not a normal part of the life cycle. It’s the result of male-led lobbying centring the interests of men’s wishes and needs.

@Freebleweeble , thank you for the link. I did try to use it but had no luck. I'll try on a laptop later, see if that helps.

I agree with you that there are huge issues facing black women that need addressing by all of us. When and where I have the opportunity, I act.
That said, the biggest threat to all the young women I know right now is ROGD.
I'd agree racism is the biggest threat to the young men I know.

Would you say that bame girls are as impacted by/vulnerable to trans ideology as white girls? All the young women I know who are transitioning are white. Obviously that isn't statistically significant in any way. I wondered whether there was any cultural difference that might be giving black girls a more positive identity as young women.

It’s like there’s a bonfire on the front lawn and a lot of people want to go look at the candle in the back garden.

Thanks for engaging, Freeble. It's funny, but I wrote a long response earlier, before I saw your last post with the above quote in it, and my analogy was something like:

feminism feels like a series of fires raging: DV, rape, CSA, healthcare, the sex pay gap, porn, FGM, etc etc. It's infuriating that while women are on the ground trying to address these issues, people are taking away the water they are using to put out the fire.

I don't think we can fight sexism if we can't name it.

For example, Hibo Wardere does wonderful work raising awareness and fighting FGM. She's repeatedly attacked for using the word 'female'.

Allison Bailey has spent her lifetime fighting various issues relating to equality: 'a lifelong campaigner for racial equality, lesbian, gay, and bisexual rights, and a survivor of child sexual abuse' - yet she nearly lost her job and has had to fight a mammoth battle after Stonewall tried to have her investigated and removed from her chambers - she has some interesting thoughts on BLM, etc, on her page, which I'm not allowed to link to but you can find by googling.

So, I think I feel the same way about the redefinition of 'woman' as I understand you do about race issues.

It's good to hear other perspectives, and it'll be interesting to see how this board develops. Nice to have input from people who've not felt they could post here before.

I suppose for me a working definition would be anyone who lives their life as an adult human female, whether they were born as such or not.

How can one live as an adult human female if they were not born one?

How you can anyone live as anything they are not born? How you can one live as cat if they are not born one? It makes absolutely no sense.

I suppose for me a working definition would be anyone who lives their life as an adult human female, whether they were born as such or not.

What does living as an adult human female entail?

Is the definition of 'man' in flux? Has it ever been?

I agree with @ItDidntStop, it's not organic, it's the result of years of lobbying in the shadows with male interests in mind.

*My biological sex is female. I don't think 'woman' is as simple as biological sex, that is where we differ obviously.

I think the definition of 'woman' is currently in flux, that is why we are all having such fierce debates about it. This is a normal part of the norm life cycle -- the contestation over how to define social norms. At some point a consensus will re-establish itself.*

Look up the dictionary definition of woman then, it might provide some clarity.

I mean wtf? How can the definition of woman be 'in flux'? This is not a normal part of the life cycle ffs, we are honestly in the realms of saying the earth is flat if we're saying there is any doubt on what a woman is. Again- science, as with the earth- is quite useful here, in explaining just what a woman is. And the lovely people at Oxford have put it in the dictionary for you, just in case anyone is in any doubt.

I notice you've made no mention of men- is the definition of 'man' currently 'in flux' too?