Telegraph: Police forces threatened with legal action over links to Stonewall

[FindTheTruth]

Exclusive: Police forces threatened with legal action over links to Stonewall
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/08/exclusive-police-forces-threatened-legal-action-links-stonewall/
(sorry I don't have a share link)
Campaigners warn that affiliation with the charity could breach police rules on political activity
By Ewan Somerville and Hayley Dixon, 8 June 2021 • 9:00pm

The topic of Police neutrality is getting a lot of attention

RECENT THREADS ON POLICE SCOTLAND:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4221733-Rape-suspects-can-choose-to-self-identify-as-female-Times-Scotland

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4263474-Police-Scotland-sexism-and-misogyny-2020-report

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4251696-Scottish-woman-told-would-be-charged-for-homophobic-and-transphobic-tweets

RECENT SPECIFIC POSTS ON POLICE LACK OF NEUTRALITY:

• www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4265916-Biological-sex-self-ID-and-rapists?msgid=108039983#108039983

• www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4263528-If-you-avoid-the-feminist-section-then-at-least-read-this-article?msgid=107978549#107978549

• www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4263478-The-Ministry-of-Justice-has-left-Stonewall?msgid=107986170#107986170

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4261822-This-might-also-be-good-news?msgid=107910618#107910618

As a bi woman I’ve never felt Stonewall represented me so prepared to give LGB Alliance an opportunity. I would like the Trans charities like Stonewall and Mermaids to stop tying them up their resources with malicious complaints to the charity commission

@CuriousaboutSamphire I think you've answered my question, they haven't done anything then! As a B person I dont find myself giving blind faith to an organisation on the supposition that someday they'll do something. once (if) they get a track record of contributing to the lgb community in ways other than, then i'll consider. you go your own way though!

I'm not really sure what my 'lazy and misinformed' accusation was because i haven't accused them of anything. it's a prickly topic I guess

But back to the police forces being called out on their political activity very much in favour. Unfortunately here on MN many feminists have long being saying the more Stonewall overreach the more likely others will be affected when they go down. This is Stonewalls fault.

Interesting! I didn't say anything about YOU - you just assumed it, took a comment about specifically named others and chose to identify as one of them.

Out if interest which are you? Pink News? A monitor?

@CuriousaboutSamphire

September 2019... They were founded then. Made a charity this year.

And, as others have said, they have been consistent in challenging the misinformation from Stonewall et al and setting up an alternative support. First annual conference is later this year.

How much more do you think they could have done in less that 2 years, mostly in lockdown?

the misinformation you're talking about is just about trans stuff though...what about lgb workplace rights, discrimination, teaching safe-sex, hate-crimes, etc.?

the sole focus of their campaign has been on trans issues...if i stood up tomorrow and said i was an lgb campaigner and please give me money to do it, i'd be laughed out of the building, quite rightly. deeds not words.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Interesting! I didn't say anything about YOU - you just assumed it, took a comment about specifically named others and chose to identify as one of them.

Out if interest which are you? Pink News? A monitor?

oh i presumed as you quoted me and responded to me then you were talking about me. sorry for that but i think it's a reasonable assumption!

I dont know what a monitor is and i dont work for pink news My impression of MN was that it was a place where things could be discussed, I didnt think there was a party line to toe (and won't be doing that ).

Ye gods! They have had trustees for 8 bloody days.

It's called starting up. Setting out your stall.
Beginning...

They aren't God, are not resting having said "Let there be light"

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Ye gods! They have had trustees for 8 bloody days.

It's called starting up. Setting out your stall.
Beginning...

They aren't God, are not resting having said "Let there be light"

i certainly dont think they're god and i understand that they are starting out 'officially', but it doesnt take much to 'set out the stall' in terms of aims that they have...they just kind of vaguely talk about lgb issues without specifying anything. all their work is just about trans stuff.

as i said, you do you but they're not getting a penny from me

all their work is just about trans stuff. like what? Specifically...

I'd like to understand the negative feeling around them in the same way as I do the negative feeling around Stonewall and many other organisations, whether I agree or not.

Campaigns to prevent the loss of sex based rights aren't anti trans.

Campaigns against teaching multiple gender identities to the youngest of kids aren't anti trans

Campaigns to increase the presence of LGB people are not anti trans

[quote DeeKavCoffee]@Tibtom don't be silly, that sounds like a far right talking point tbh. Obviously the largest lgbt organisation in the UK doesn't deny same sex attraction

We can criticise SW's involvement on trans issues but as many have said they have the longest track record of protecting lesbian and gay rights (although as a bi person they haven't been as great).

Repeating idiotic conspiracy theories doesn't strengthen our position, and makes us look like the loons they want us to be[/quote]
Have you actually read SW definition of homosexuality? Lesbians not being attracted to men who identify as women is transphobic!

@jellybeansforbreakfast

all their work is just about trans stuff. like what? Specifically...

I'd like to understand the negative feeling around them in the same way as I do the negative feeling around Stonewall and many other organisations, whether I agree or not.

Campaigns to prevent the loss of sex based rights aren't anti trans.

Campaigns against teaching multiple gender identities to the youngest of kids aren't anti trans

Campaigns to increase the presence of LGB people are not anti trans

i didnt say anything about them being anti-trans, i just said all of their work is about trans things. there are lgb-specific things that need to be looked at still but they're not doing any of it (or have even talked about doing it, from what i can see).

im all for more organisations than SW starting out but LGBA just seem a one-issue candidate

@Tibtom i just looked SW's definitions up again (pasted below)... i dont see anything about lesbians being transphobic if they don't get with transwomen. can you link me?

there's valid gender critical points and then there's just plain myths and fantasies, i dont particularly want to get involved with the latter

Gay

Refers to a man who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards men. Also a generic term for lesbian and gay sexuality - some women define themselves as gay rather than lesbian. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.

Homosexual

This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

Homophobia

The fear or dislike of someone, based on prejudice or negative attitudes, beliefs or views about lesbian, gay or bi people. Homophobic bullying may be targeted at people who are, or who are perceived to be, lesbian, gay or bi.

Lesbian

Refers to a woman who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards women. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.

But they aren't trans things.. sorry the anti slipped in becasue I was also responding to a similar query on another platform. I'll say it again, properly:

Campaigns to prevent the loss of sex based rights aren't trans things

Campaigns against teaching multiple gender identities to the youngest of kids aren't trans things

Campaigns to increase the presence of LGB people are not trans things

They are all womens rights, gay, lesbian, bi rights, safeguarding children.

They only become trans things if you don't believe that women are adult human femals and never anything else; that the youngest of kids do not need safeguarding against the confusing multiplicity of genders and the refutation of science; that LGB can only exist if it is closely linked to T

Have you actually read their website?

Homosexual

This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

So not same sex attracted, as I said.

@TrainedByCats

As a bi woman I’ve never felt Stonewall represented me so prepared to give LGB Alliance an opportunity. I would like the Trans charities like Stonewall and Mermaids to stop tying them up their resources with malicious complaints to the charity commission

Quite @TrainedByCats there's no need for it. Live and let live. Each group has a right to representation. Lesbians, Bis and Gays have not had representation for 6 years!

[quote DeeKavCoffee]@Tibtom i just looked SW's definitions up again (pasted below)... i dont see anything about lesbians being transphobic if they don't get with transwomen. can you link me?

there's valid gender critical points and then there's just plain myths and fantasies, i dont particularly want to get involved with the latter

Gay

Refers to a man who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards men. Also a generic term for lesbian and gay sexuality - some women define themselves as gay rather than lesbian. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.

Homosexual

This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

Homophobia

The fear or dislike of someone, based on prejudice or negative attitudes, beliefs or views about lesbian, gay or bi people. Homophobic bullying may be targeted at people who are, or who are perceived to be, lesbian, gay or bi.

Lesbian

Refers to a woman who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards women. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.[/quote]
Gay men attracted to men

Lesbians attracted to women

All seems fine until you look at it more closely. Doesn't same same sex attraction, and homosexual is same gender attraction.

Given that Stonewall also say TWAW and TMAM, acceptance without question, then you can see why many lesbians, and increasing numbers of gay men are getting annoyed!

Add to that the years of Twitter feed, press releases, lobbying etc, the stated aim of removal of single sex provision of absolutely anything - they can say sex then - and you should be able to see it.

[quote DeeKavCoffee]@Tibtom don't be silly, that sounds like a far right talking point tbh. Obviously the largest lgbt organisation in the UK doesn't deny same sex attraction

We can criticise SW's involvement on trans issues but as many have said they have the longest track record of protecting lesbian and gay rights (although as a bi person they haven't been as great).

Repeating idiotic conspiracy theories doesn't strengthen our position, and makes us look like the loons they want us to be[/quote]
I beg to differ. The Stonewall glossary of terms shows clearly that Stonewall has a different idea about homosexuality than UK equality law (and most lesbians, gays and bisexuals):

Homosexual
This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

The glossary also makes it clear that Stonewall differentiates between sex and gender, and that gender is socially constructed and refers to masculinity and femininity. By their own definition then, homosexuality is not same-sex but same-gender attraction, and a male transgender person who has not transitioned in any way is accepted as a lesbian. This has had a harmful effect on lesbians.

They have also refused any and all requests, however politely or despairingly made, to affirm that a female person who is strictly same-sex attracted to the exclusion of a male transgender person who identifies as a lesbian is not transphobic. This has had a harmful effect on lesbians.

Lesbian organisation Get the L out collected first person accounts of lesbians sharing what this means in practice.

Furthermore, in 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
wgscotland.org.uk/reports/

Stonewall's abandonment of same-sex attracted people is as much of an "idiotic conspiracy theory" as its campaign to abolish the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act (as claimed by Benjamin Cohen on the BBC this week). It's on their own website, in their own words.

I don't know about you, but when someone makes it so clear who they are (and who they are for), I believe them.

Link to the Stonewall glossary: www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/glossary-terms

@jellybeansforbreakfast (sorry it wont let me quote)

I'm sorry but i still dont see it. even if it says gender instead of sex, how does that mean im transphobic if i dont want to get with a transwoman? i've never been told that or even had it hinted

there seems to be a few nutters on twitter (surprise surprise!) saying that but it seems to be a very extremist view and not something stonewall have said.

let me look more on SW's website though, who knows!!

I'm sorry but i still dont see it. even if it says gender instead of sex, And that's the sticking point. The reason that even when we use the same words we mean different things.

As has been posted Stonewall know the difference. They made their position very clear!

Yeah! You can't quote a post with a quote in it. Can be annoying but I suppose it saves very very long posts

So you now agree they don't support same sex attraction?

@jellybeansforbreakfast

Yeah! You can't quote a post with a quote in it. Can be annoying but I suppose it saves very very long posts

ooooh got you! ty

@Tibtom

So you now agree they don't support same sex attraction?

no it doesnt say that though...in their definition of what we would call same-sex attraction they use gender. obviously they mean that to be transwomen and transmen but that doesn't stop anyone from being solely attracted to only non-transwomen and non-transmen (there has to be an easier way to say that!!)

as i said it would be pretty silly for an organisation that caters for minority sexualities to tell people who they should have sex with. i still haven't seen anything to that effect (i've been on their website for a half hour now ) so it seems like a conspiracy more than anything. they use different terms that us but the whole 'you must have sex with these people or you're transphobic' is a strawman if ever i saw one.

You seem not to be reading all that is posted for you!

CharlieParley gave you an example. There are others, but you won't find it on their website. There are quite a few threads here about it over the years - but I doubt anyone has collated them.