Feel like I'm losing my DD

[RichardOsmansShinySuitcase]

Regular lurker here. I just wanted to ask for any advice and understanding because it is so difficult to talk about IRL. Basically DD2 is 19, she is gay and now in a relationship with a trans woman. Before this she was very GC along with me and we could talk about everything, we had some great conversations and she was so sensible about it all, she felt women's spaces were being eroded and thought it was very wrong that lesbians were being told they should be in relationships with trans women who were intact males. But somehow she has fallen down a rabbit hole since getting involved with her partner a few months ago, she's also turned from a lovely sunny natured girl into a really angry young woman. And it is breaking my heart.

I can only describe it as if she has joined a cult. Suddenly she changed and put up this wall between us, and when I try and talk about it she shrieks at me and tells me I am a terf bigot. I tried to gently challenge her, talking about how she is gay but now in a relationship with an intact male identifying as a woman, but she got so angry at me and told me her girlfriend is a woman and always has been, that she is a lesbian just like her and how dare I say anything else. She's changed her mind on everything including women's sports which before she was up in arms about. It's like she's fallen into this great dark void and I can't reach her.

I know this sounds extreme but it's like I am losing her, like she is in a cult and can't hear truth any more. She was always so sensible, so what the fuck happened to her? Her partner is very involved in campaigning for trans rights etc. I've always been for trans rights but not when they erode women's rights and so has dd2. Her older sister also thinks she has fallen down a rabbit hole and she herself is not TWAW though very pro people identifying as they wish and respecting pronouns etc (which I am too).

I'm not sure why I am sharing this, except to reach out and ask if anyone is going through similar with their teens, and how on earth can you talk about it when it's like they are an immovable rock on the subject? It's like she's fully deluded and won't listen to science, she keeps quoting dodgy science and stats about suicide etc, and just won't listen when I try to send links etc. she thinks JK rowling is the devil.

I'm just at my wits end I guess and needed to reach out. I am heartbroken that i no longer seem to be able to speak to my daughter who I love so much. I want her to be happy but she just seems angry. If anyone has any advice on how I can break down barriers I would be so grateful.

Try reading the thread ool0n There's lots of thoughtful comments about how to navigate this tricky parent / adult child relationship.

Just remind her she can get pregnant and to take precautions and let her out grow her phase

Defining others gender and sexuality seems to be a hobby for many GC people.

What the hell my irony meter just exploded

So women (born women) being labelled "cis gender" was a hobby for GC people?
Demanding lesbians include penis was a hobby for GC people??? Renaming women as "menstruators, cervix havers, ovulators, birthing people" all of which draw attention to genitals this was all simply a GC hobby??

It sounds like your dd isn’t happy. The change in personality is worrying. Keep loving her and supporting her and being there for her. I’d be concerned that the change in personality was due to her partner. Maybe her partner is trying to create a wedge between you as from what you’ve written she’s coming away from her friends.

I’d shut down any discussion around trans. Remind her about contraception and just be there as much as you can. Don’t give them any cause to suggest they need to have less to do with you because of your GC views

@1975776qe0u

by cnversations - i meant that one person talks and the other listens. you can ask question but not respond. let her tell you about it and be open to what she says. as i said - your task for both of you can be to understand the other person even if you dont agree. see why the issue of trans right is such a big deal today. think about why it is that it wasnt when we were younger etc etc etc

and as gently as i can - science is a social construct. it is a human endeavour to understand the world around us. it is not god given or objective. it is subject to critique, debate and change.....and i say as someone with a PhD is science

Missed this doozy! Wow. Who knew that genomes, gravity, gas chromatography and a load of things that begin with other letters were merely social constructs. Every days a school day in MN.

OP it sounds really difficult. Keep lines of communication open. Don't get into debates with her. I agree that becoming isolated from friends and being constantly angry are worrying red flags, not so much the bi/lesbian label, nor the gender identity of her partner. Being with a partner who displays some abusive traits is the thing to be concerned about. And I think you may have to be super warm and welcoming to both of them, hard as that might be (because of the potentially abusive behaviour not because of their trans status before anyone jumps down my throat), otherwise she could end up isolated from you as well.

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Try reading the thread ool0n There's lots of thoughtful comments about how to navigate this tricky parent / adult child relationship.

Like laughing along with a parent who spoke to his kid about her partner's junk? Or maybe the people consoling them that she'll break up with the woman she loves? All great advice there.

Best advice - apologise - promise to never mention "gender critical" talking points again. I would say promise never to talk about her partners genitals, but it's maybe best to never mention that ever again and pretend it didn't happen. Also promise to learn about trans people from trans led charities, like Gendered Intelligence, and get informed.

Noticing if someone is male or female isn't bringing up their genitals

I am also bisexual and I notice whether my partner is male or female and don't expect anyone else to pretend not to notice. I think my parents were pretty shocked when I started dating a man after my relationship with a woman broke down as they'd assumed a relationship with a woman meant I was a lesbian. I'd deliberately never defined it.

an online group dedicated to rolling back her partners rights

This is a lie.

I wonder if she's angry because she's in a constant state of cognitive dissonance?

Like laughing along with a parent who spoke to his kid about her partner's junk?

Maybe read the thread a little more carefully. OP was laughing at my 'said no women ever' comment which was itself quoting something one of your fellow TRAs had said.

Not laughing about a parent who spoke about their partners 'junk'. (As an aside - 'junk' really? Are you a Californian teenager or something?)

@StrangeLookingParasite

an online group dedicated to rolling back her partners rights

This is a lie.

I wonder if she's angry because she's in a constant state of cognitive dissonance?

Or maybe she's angry as she knows how her mum really feels about her choice of partner? Just as likely

Like laughing along with a parent who spoke to his kid about her partner's junk? Or maybe the people consoling them that she'll break up with the woman she loves? All great advice there.

Why do you keep saying that the OP is a man? She’s the daughter’s mum. Also, pretend all you like with ‘the woman she loves’ stuff but a man, even if he wears pink dresses, is not a woman. The OP seems to be entirely respectful and polite to the daughter’s partner but you can’t force people to believe stuff that isn’t true. The changes in personality and anger is also really concerning but apparently it’s all cool because this person is trans.

I can safely say I have never mentioned my dds partners genitals to her. The thought of it... hmm no. I realise in the OP I pondered on her being with an 'intact male' but then clarified that my conversations with her were about seeing where she felt she was in terms of her sexuality, mainly because I wanted to understand how she saw herself after her being previously so GC. I don't now bring it up at all but she keeps bringing it up in a very argumentative way and it's wearing. I've had a lot of good advice here about drawing back from talking about it, so that's really helpful (I'm also not a man btw).

Thank you for those of you mentioning any red flags. Tbh there have been a few, she seemed to drop friends slowly, just not replying to messages etc and not going out with them like usual even when she could post lockdown etc, it's not like her because she loved her group so much. In reply to a pp yes there's been a couple of break ups. I think this thread is helping me clarify this is not actually all about the GC issue at all but about a relationship in which she doesn't seem to be flourishing and that is what is breaking my heart most of all. Thank you for all your thoughts, I will think carefully about how I react when she next brings it up, and try and change the tone of the conversation by not engaging on that issue. She matters so much more than my stance on it, and I know she knows that because I keep telling her I support her wholeheartedly.

I think I would want to know more about her girlfriend's previous partners and the state of their happiness. Hard to find out without stirring the pot though.

Good luck with it all OP - glad that the thread was helpful. Watching our children being unhappy / stressed is so difficult, no matter what their age. They are a part of us and while it's right that they become completely independent and their own people, it's so bloody hard when you see them unhappy.
And isn't it fascinating as you point out, that often the issue we first spot on the surface is not in fact the real concern? That's what I love about Mumsnet - the way other women help us tease things out - even when it's challenging and critical at times.

In reply to a pp yes there's been a couple of break ups. I think this thread is helping me clarify this is not actually all about the GC issue at all but about a relationship in which she doesn't seem to be flourishing and that is what is breaking my heart most of all.

I don't mean to sound alarming, but in my experience relationships where there is an abusive or controlling dynamic often have this volatile, on-again, off-again pattern. There's huge bust ups, followed by v dramatic make ups. It can all seem v romantic, but is often also destabilising. One never knows where one is - what might trigger jealousy, rage, upset. Often the abuser paints themself very much as a victim and the person being controlled feels they need rescued or 'saved' or lots of sympathy.

Isolation, general unhappiness also sound familiar.

I think the years I was in one of these, I was never quite myself. Couldn't work out what the problem was, really, and didn't recognise it for what it was until quite long afterwards.

www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

she seemed to drop friends slowly, just not replying to messages etc and not going out with them like usual even when she could post lockdown etc, it's not like her because she loved her group so much

If you pick your times very carefully, perhaps you could occasionally ask after her previous best friends. A small reminder that they exist and she was close to them before. If she is in an abusive relationship and has been deliberately cut off from them, it might do no harm to nudge her towards seeing them again. Perhaps at a time she’s been let down, or messed around.

I think I might worry that having isolated your daughter from her friends, her gf and perhaps the community are now isolating her from her family - perhaps she's pushing you to say something that could pass as 'unforgivable' so she could justify leaving home to be with the gf.

Just a thought from a battle scarred woman who's been through enough abusive and/or crap relationships to be sensitive to certain dynamics.