Feel like I'm losing my DD

[RichardOsmansShinySuitcase]

Regular lurker here. I just wanted to ask for any advice and understanding because it is so difficult to talk about IRL. Basically DD2 is 19, she is gay and now in a relationship with a trans woman. Before this she was very GC along with me and we could talk about everything, we had some great conversations and she was so sensible about it all, she felt women's spaces were being eroded and thought it was very wrong that lesbians were being told they should be in relationships with trans women who were intact males. But somehow she has fallen down a rabbit hole since getting involved with her partner a few months ago, she's also turned from a lovely sunny natured girl into a really angry young woman. And it is breaking my heart.

I can only describe it as if she has joined a cult. Suddenly she changed and put up this wall between us, and when I try and talk about it she shrieks at me and tells me I am a terf bigot. I tried to gently challenge her, talking about how she is gay but now in a relationship with an intact male identifying as a woman, but she got so angry at me and told me her girlfriend is a woman and always has been, that she is a lesbian just like her and how dare I say anything else. She's changed her mind on everything including women's sports which before she was up in arms about. It's like she's fallen into this great dark void and I can't reach her.

I know this sounds extreme but it's like I am losing her, like she is in a cult and can't hear truth any more. She was always so sensible, so what the fuck happened to her? Her partner is very involved in campaigning for trans rights etc. I've always been for trans rights but not when they erode women's rights and so has dd2. Her older sister also thinks she has fallen down a rabbit hole and she herself is not TWAW though very pro people identifying as they wish and respecting pronouns etc (which I am too).

I'm not sure why I am sharing this, except to reach out and ask if anyone is going through similar with their teens, and how on earth can you talk about it when it's like they are an immovable rock on the subject? It's like she's fully deluded and won't listen to science, she keeps quoting dodgy science and stats about suicide etc, and just won't listen when I try to send links etc. she thinks JK rowling is the devil.

I'm just at my wits end I guess and needed to reach out. I am heartbroken that i no longer seem to be able to speak to my daughter who I love so much. I want her to be happy but she just seems angry. If anyone has any advice on how I can break down barriers I would be so grateful.

Thing is though, if you'd genuinely gone from one point of view to the opposing one, you'd probably have a train of thought you could explain as to why what you thought previously was wrong. She may have this but not be able to or want to articulate it, perhaps she thinks people she know's feelings are more important than strangers' safety (not being facetious, most of us have biases along these lines to some extent).

Give her space and time and she might bring it up to try and rationalise her POV - or she might decide not to ever. Up to her. Obviously be watchful of any abuse or coercion, as you would in any relationship where someone drastically changes, but it's really a 'pick your battles' and show her with actions that she'll be safe coming to you if needed.

These are really helpful replies. Thank you all.

I do like the idea of a series of conversations, but I don't feel it would work at this stage - I'm very good at being quiet and careful, and weighing all sides, but she gets very flustered and angry so it's really difficult to have those conversations at the moment. So I'm in agreement with most of you here, I think, to simply be there and love her.

When I talk about cult/rabbit hole, it's just because it seems to me she has taken on views that are anti-scientific and also that she simply won't listen to or engage with other views. We've brought her up to be free thinking - she's very opinionated on political matters for example, and I am so proud of her - and she's always iterated the importance of weighing every side of a debate. With this though it really is no debate - she just won't. For me, that feels cultish, but as ever I am always examining my own views and am willing to learn from her, and tell her that I am.

I think I just needed to get this all out as it's been building up and I've been worried about her acting out of character lately, Thanks for listening.

I know it's perfectly bloody obvious, but remind her about contraception...

It must be hard to feel that there is a divide between you. Perhaps steering clear of labels for the time being might help to alleviate some of the tension - she can love whoever she wants without being labelled gay or straight (perhaps some of her anger is resulting from her previous view of the definition of /sense of self as “lesbian”, which is now challenged as a result of this relationship).

by cnversations - i meant that one person talks and the other listens. you can ask question but not respond. let her tell you about it and be open to what she says. as i said - your task for both of you can be to understand the other person even if you dont agree. see why the issue of trans right is such a big deal today. think about why it is that it wasnt when we were younger etc etc etc

and as gently as i can - science is a social construct. it is a human endeavour to understand the world around us. it is not god given or objective. it is subject to critique, debate and change.....and i say as someone with a PhD is science

I think the only thing you can do is talk to her about contraception and then keep out of it. The more you but heads the more you'll push her away, so I'd avoid those topics if I were you.

Lots of good advice already here. Only one thing I would like to add is that you deserve respect and no one, not even a beloved DD, has a right to abuse.

If you can't avoid a clash, then be respectful and firm in your own need for respect. Accepting abuse is one lesson you don't want to model for your daughter.

As someone mentioned over, you do need to talk about contraception. All other aspects I would try and keep out of but this one definitely needs pointing out.

I don't think it's really that unusual to change all your ideas at that age, or at least try new ones. And romance can often be a catalyst for that.

As far as the lesbian business, I'd have my doubts, but I think in general we've become too ready to let young people define their identity through their sexuality at an age when many will still be experiencing changes in that area. Which no big deal if you aren't invested in labels and haven't built all your social relationships around it, but is a lot harder potentially if you have defined yourself and who you are through that lens and worse if a lot of your social connections are through that identity as well.

But you can't do much about that now, other than maybe try and let her know that people do change in that area. But at the moment I'd probably not push it.

Perhaps take a step back. The word 'cult' and phrases like 'falling down a rabbit hole' are thown about too much here. For many people reading these boards the same can be said about Gender Critical people.

It sounds as if DD was all behind GC views when they were theoretical (as many on here are) but when she's got to know a trans person she realised how exclusitory some of the talking points are.

Your DD obviously see's her gf as a woman and it's not suprising that she is reacting negativly if you're trying to tell her that her partner isn't woman and that she isn't allowed to call her self a lesbian any more because her gf is an 'intact male'.

The whole 'intact male' thing makes no sense to be honest. What does a person' genetalia really have to do with how they experience the world.

My advice would be to get to know your DDs gf (and other trans people) and take a less advisarial approach. This board is terrible for viewing everything as a zero-sum game and approaching compicated topics by over simplification and an under-developed 'us vs them' mentiality. Life is more nuanced than that.

I actually think that if shes gay, then this is bound to happen. She may well change her views again later on down the line, but really, at the moment, unless she wants to be alienated from most of her own community, she will probably swing between different opinions. Youve obviously brought her up to think critically, so for now, just let her get on with it. Roll your eyes in private. Try and unfollow some of the GC stuff, as it can all get a bit much and might make you feel panicky. Your kids are going to do what theyre going to do, whether you believe in the same stuff or not. She may be under pressure from her partner to denounce all non believers, which might be why shes stressed and angry.
Your priority is keeping your relationship with your daughter and not rocking the boat. Thats more important imo than being actively involved in any movement such as the radfem or GC stuff.

Sounds really tough. As the mother of a young lesbian, I would be utterly stunned if she arrived home with someone with male genitalia.

Was she settled as a lesbian? Did it fit with what you’d observed of her over the years? Or might she have been kicking over the traces in saying that she was? Has she embraced the idea of an LGBT community? My daughter avoids it because of the pressure to accept that boys are girls, if they say so.

If she hadn’t told you her girlfriend was trans, would you have known? Does she look female? I think that does make a difference.

It may be she’s bi and adjusting to that, or she may have just been experimenting with the idea of lesbianism. Equally, many lesbian and gay people end up in straight relationships. This might be the modern version of that.

Her anger might be related to the relationship. Young transactivism as I see it on Twitter is astonishingly angry. Alternatively, it might be related to cognitive dissonance. Nothing is more anger-making than pressuring yourself to be something you feel you ought to be, while suppressing your conscience that is screaming at you that it’s not really right.

It sounds very difficult, but I think you have to bite your tongue and accept this is where she is at the moment.

Is it you that brings it up, or her?

I think if she’s the one bringing it up, and she is always angry, you have to gently disengage and say you don’t want to discuss it at all when she’s angry and that it can only be a discussion if she’s completely calm.

If it’s you bringing it up, then stop. You won’t change her mind and will drive her into being more defensive. You might also drive her away, which is not at all desirable. If she is angry because the relationship isn’t good, then she might need you when it falls apart.

Calling her girlfriend an 'intact male' is hardly the way to keep a good relationship with her is it? You're clearly not okay with her choice of partner, but that's a you problem.

I hope she's very happy, and respected by the other people in her life.

I think it’s a mistake to keep on having these discussions on principle

In your case, your beliefs no longer are in line with your DD beliefs. That is normal. Urging her to “see sense” and come back to her old way of thinking will lead nowhere.

Could it be possible that she is easily influenced?

As, to start with she agreed with you and your beliefs. Now there is a more important person in her life (new partner) and she now aligns her beliefs with theirs.

You are making a mistake by wanting to discuss trans issues with her. As to you it’s political and on principle, to her it now is personal (a person she loves)

I do not believe ‘‘twas nor should people who have gone through make puberty be in women’s sports. Nor should make bodied people have access to women-only areas.

However, if my child would date a trans person, I would change the conversation to make sure they both felt welcome snd supported in my house. I would not change my views. But I’d stop discussing them so much and instead try and listen snd be sympathetic maybe

@AnyOldPrion

Sounds really tough. As the mother of a young lesbian, I would be utterly stunned if she arrived home with someone with male genitalia.

Was she settled as a lesbian? Did it fit with what you’d observed of her over the years? Or might she have been kicking over the traces in saying that she was? Has she embraced the idea of an LGBT community? My daughter avoids it because of the pressure to accept that boys are girls, if they say so.

If she hadn’t told you her girlfriend was trans, would you have known? Does she look female? I think that does make a difference.

It may be she’s bi and adjusting to that, or she may have just been experimenting with the idea of lesbianism. Equally, many lesbian and gay people end up in straight relationships. This might be the modern version of that.

Her anger might be related to the relationship. Young transactivism as I see it on Twitter is astonishingly angry. Alternatively, it might be related to cognitive dissonance. Nothing is more anger-making than pressuring yourself to be something you feel you ought to be, while suppressing your conscience that is screaming at you that it’s not really right.

It sounds very difficult, but I think you have to bite your tongue and accept this is where she is at the moment.

Is it you that brings it up, or her?

I think if she’s the one bringing it up, and she is always angry, you have to gently disengage and say you don’t want to discuss it at all when she’s angry and that it can only be a discussion if she’s completely calm.

If it’s you bringing it up, then stop. You won’t change her mind and will drive her into being more defensive. You might also drive her away, which is not at all desirable. If she is angry because the relationship isn’t good, then she might need you when it falls apart.

Thanks, a really helpful post. To be honest she'd only been settled on herself as gay the past two years, prior to that she'd had several boyfriends, but never felt she fitted in with that scene. She is now very happily settled within the LGBT community and feels supported there which is great.

I'd definitely have known her gf was trans, she presents very much in female stereotyped clothing etc but is obviously male from facial/bodily characteristics. Not at all an issue to me, the issue is her completely turning away from conversation and refusing to engage/listen, and her sudden anger. You ask if it's me that brings it up, it's actually her - she often starts to talk about it in a very ranty way, bringing up politics etc and the oppression of trans people, and I always express empathy for her gf and those going through dysphoria, but somehow it's like she wants me to fight back, she knows I still have a GC position and she keeps prodding. I have never shouted back at her. I haven't actually said anything about intact males to her directly, that was a clumsily worded OP - it was just in a conversation or two she brought up when I wanted to know how she saw it and how she saw her sexuality within this, I wouldn't use the word intact male to her, as a pp says it wouldn't be a good way of showing love to her - it's more what I'm just pondering on here.

I think you're right, it's about biting my tongue and just loving her, and i think I do that now, and will probably try and avoid her ranting about it a bit more and just leave it if I can. I guess I was posting because I wondered if there was a good way of talking about all this without alienating her. I love her so much and as I say I just want her to flourish and not be unhappy.

@BetterThanKleenex

Calling her girlfriend an 'intact male' is hardly the way to keep a good relationship with her is it? You're clearly not okay with her choice of partner, but that's a you problem.

I hope she's very happy, and respected by the other people in her life.

But this is exactly what I'm worried about, that she's not happy. She seems to have totally left behind most of her friends and says she feels lonely unless she's with her gf, and as I say it's the anger in general, not just at me but at the whole family and the world in general. As I say I haven't actually used the words intact male to her and wouldn't dream of it. And I respect her with all that I am, which is why I am reaching out for ways to help me do that better, and why I appreciate all the posts here, even the more challenging ones.

Why are you discussing this if it's a sore point? She probably hasn't changed about most things so why zero in on this one area? I know MN can be obsessed with these issues but mothers and daughters don't have to agree about them. Most of us have dangerous topics and this is clearly yours.

I wouldn't decide she is turning into an angry person yet. I would be angry with a conversation that told me I was gay, for instance, or referred to my trans partner as an intact male. That was just provocative in context. This isn't your MP you're lobbying.

Oh you haven't actually used those terms, it sounded like you had

Sorry out if you want to help your DD be happy or you want your GC side kick back, don't fool yourself they're the same thing. Then go dark in the trans issues if you care about your DD and just be her mother. It's the time for you to step back.

OP - I suspect her repeatedly bringing it up is unconsciously deliberate. I'm not a psychologist but know that parent child relationships often involve all sorts of power play and challenging dynamics - for both sides.
If she's raising issues with you, I'd rehearse for myself a calm response - listening to her views but not reacting to them (which is what she's after). IF she pushes you for a reaction then disengaging with something like "I don't want to get into this particular discussion as it often gets too tense? Let's just ...... "
I'm sure someone can come up with something better but as most of us appreciate, sometimes avoiding confrontation with our children in order to maintain the relationship is important (and sometimes it's not ... but in these circumstances....).

That's very wise, @MrsOvertonsWindow.

@deathbypostitnote thank you. It's more her keeping bringing it up and me wanting to know how to respond when she just won't engage on any level with it but rant. It's really hard to see. You're right about pulling back, and this thread is helping me see that, and think about ways to do that.

It sounds like your daughter might still be figuring things out, but if she is lesbian then she is basically being coerced by a male. And deep down she will know this is wrong which is why she is behaving differently. Deep down she still agrees with you on those GC beliefs, which is why she’s so quick to call you names like bigot. She’s too afraid to speak out because she wants acceptance from her community; this would all lead to her change in behaviour. I think you just need to be there for her, supportive and non judgemental. Try and ask questions when you can, to prompt her to think things through in different ways and if possible encourage her to spend some time away from friends who may have an agenda to push.

@RichardOsmansShinySuitcase

That's very wise, *@MrsOvertonsWindow*.

@deathbypostitnote thank you. It's more her keeping bringing it up and me wanting to know how to respond when she just won't engage on any level with it but rant. It's really hard to see. You're right about pulling back, and this thread is helping me see that, and think about ways to do that.

Stay strong. Sounds like she’s embraced the queer community and now she’s being pulled away from you and/or she’s pushing you away. The good thing is that she still wants to engage with you, even if in an angry way.

Stay very calm, refuse to engage, keep your boundaries clear. Tell her you don’t have to agree on everything, it’s her life and her choice. Show her you love and accept her and her choice of relationship. If she pulls away more, make it wholly clear she’s welcome back any time.

Good luck. I hope you find a way forward.

The whole 'intact male' thing makes no sense to be honest. What does a person' genetalia really have to do with how they experience the world.

Maternity hospitals are full of people just thinking about that.

Yes 334bu I think genitalia has a real relationship with how a person views or is viewed by the rest of the world. You can’t ignore it, and no this is definitely not a lesbian relationship..

I think the best thing you can do is to keep telling her that you love her unconditionally. That you are glad she has found someone who makes her happy and she has your support.
Even if you can see she is not happy, you can't make her see or accept that, she will work things out for herself. She needs to know that you are a safe person and that you will be there for her no matter what.
We all try different relationships until we settle on the right one. Expressing a negative opinion, as a parent, is nearly always counterproductive.