Feel like I'm losing my DD

[RichardOsmansShinySuitcase]

Regular lurker here. I just wanted to ask for any advice and understanding because it is so difficult to talk about IRL. Basically DD2 is 19, she is gay and now in a relationship with a trans woman. Before this she was very GC along with me and we could talk about everything, we had some great conversations and she was so sensible about it all, she felt women's spaces were being eroded and thought it was very wrong that lesbians were being told they should be in relationships with trans women who were intact males. But somehow she has fallen down a rabbit hole since getting involved with her partner a few months ago, she's also turned from a lovely sunny natured girl into a really angry young woman. And it is breaking my heart.

I can only describe it as if she has joined a cult. Suddenly she changed and put up this wall between us, and when I try and talk about it she shrieks at me and tells me I am a terf bigot. I tried to gently challenge her, talking about how she is gay but now in a relationship with an intact male identifying as a woman, but she got so angry at me and told me her girlfriend is a woman and always has been, that she is a lesbian just like her and how dare I say anything else. She's changed her mind on everything including women's sports which before she was up in arms about. It's like she's fallen into this great dark void and I can't reach her.

I know this sounds extreme but it's like I am losing her, like she is in a cult and can't hear truth any more. She was always so sensible, so what the fuck happened to her? Her partner is very involved in campaigning for trans rights etc. I've always been for trans rights but not when they erode women's rights and so has dd2. Her older sister also thinks she has fallen down a rabbit hole and she herself is not TWAW though very pro people identifying as they wish and respecting pronouns etc (which I am too).

I'm not sure why I am sharing this, except to reach out and ask if anyone is going through similar with their teens, and how on earth can you talk about it when it's like they are an immovable rock on the subject? It's like she's fully deluded and won't listen to science, she keeps quoting dodgy science and stats about suicide etc, and just won't listen when I try to send links etc. she thinks JK rowling is the devil.

I'm just at my wits end I guess and needed to reach out. I am heartbroken that i no longer seem to be able to speak to my daughter who I love so much. I want her to be happy but she just seems angry. If anyone has any advice on how I can break down barriers I would be so grateful.

The trans and sexuality stuff is not irrelvant to all of this but essentially your post is:

"My daughter used to be happy, secure in herself, had friends, a good social life and we were close. Since she started dating her new partner, she is angry, lonely, has lost her friends, is dependent on her new partner, does not seem happy, and is oppositional to me.'

That would be concerning for any parent. If your daughter was clearly happy and loved and in love etc in this relationship you would still have some of these questions about her sexuality and gender stuff but you wouldnt be worried.

PPs have it right though, she has to follow this path and see where it goes. All you can do is be there for her.

This might be slightly controversial but was your DD definitely as GC prior as you say ?

I only say this because I’m not far off her age (slightly older) and I have many friends my age who have a view at home to keep the peace, and then their real views. This isn’t always in relation to gender, but a close friend had a very GC mother, my friend had no strong views either way, but got on well with her mother and would discuss these things. My friend (who is 25) later got into a relationship with a trans woman and through the exposure/ new experience went from ambivalent to being a trans rights campaigner.

I was just wondering if something similar could have happened.

On a side note, as a bisexual woman, I would be a bit disturbed if my mother brought up my partners genitals

On a side note, as a bisexual woman, I would be a bit disturbed if my mother brought up my partners genitals

The way some people like to pretend that noticing someone is male is 'bringing up their genitals' is very disturbing.

OP, this sounds really hard for you, and I sympathise. I would agree with PP to just keep that door open, lots of reminders of your love and support, and avoid the whole issue. Try to be as detached about it as you can. She'll remember the conversations you had in the past - you don't need to have them again. Concentrate on providing a place of peace and sanity (away from all the bullshit in her head.)

One day this won't be fashionable any more and many of those who were so passionate will have either grown up or jumped on the next bandwagon.

This whole business is not helpful to either genuine trans people or women. We're living in really divisive times. People are frustrated generally with the world as it is and this fuels certain agendas. There will be push back eventually, it won't last forever.

The whole 'intact male' thing makes no sense to be honest. What does a person' genetalia really have to do with how they experience the world.

Said no woman ever

If you view her interactions through the prism of teen/parent relationships then she's trying to get attention and build connection with you through the 'angry' discussions. If being gc was something that bonded you both, she might be struggling with how to maintain her bond with you when you are both in different feminist places now.
I agree with PPs about giving her space and offering support but I wonder if it would be worthwhile to consider what other political/feminist areas you bond on so she can see, understand and feel that her shift in position doesn't mean she's isolated from you.
I'd reiterate that you understand and respect she has her view then steer the conversation to a new topic area where you can bond. She needs to see she hasn't lost her relationship with you simply because her view has shifted. She's coping with a lot of changes and there will be peers pressuring her to draw back from you because of your gc views. But you can still provide stability and support.

What does a person' genetalia really have to do with how they experience the world.

Gender ideology says we are not women because of our biology but because we identify as ladies/we chose girly things.

You said some horrible things about her partner, and are in an online group dedicated to rolling back her partners rights. I would think she's come to realise the harm "gender critical" people are doing and is rightly angry you oppose the rights of the woman she loves.

But you are confused as to why she is angry with you and are spinning it into "she's joined a cult". No, it's entirely reasonable that she'd be angry with you. I posted a thread on here asking if GC people will now accept they're wrong about the EA 2010, as they'd just spent 100K on a failed attempt to assert the EA 2010 says service providers have to exclude trans women to make them "single sex" spaces. What effect do you think that would have on her girlfriends life? On her life as partner of a trans woman? Maybe think long and hard about that, and how your beliefs are harming her, and actions if you donated to Ann Sinnott's failed lawsuit.

@GrumpyTerrier

The trans and sexuality stuff is not irrelvant to all of this but essentially your post is:

"My daughter used to be happy, secure in herself, had friends, a good social life and we were close. Since she started dating her new partner, she is angry, lonely, has lost her friends, is dependent on her new partner, does not seem happy, and is oppositional to me.'

That would be concerning for any parent. If your daughter was clearly happy and loved and in love etc in this relationship you would still have some of these questions about her sexuality and gender stuff but you wouldnt be worried.

PPs have it right though, she has to follow this path and see where it goes. All you can do is be there for her.

This is very stark, and brings it into focus a bit more. This is what is happening and I feel helpless, I guess. You're right - being there is all I can do, and need to do.

@titchy

The whole 'intact male' thing makes no sense to be honest. What does a person' genetalia really have to do with how they experience the world.

Said no woman ever

TBH titchy I'm having a 'testing' day but that statement made me howl with laughter so it had entertainment value if nothing else .

nothing much to add Op, some wise women, coming up with some wise suggestions (there are of course those who don't bother reading the thread - so ignore). I hope they've helped

@Tagaagajavdv

This might be slightly controversial but was your DD definitely as GC prior as you say ?

I only say this because I’m not far off her age (slightly older) and I have many friends my age who have a view at home to keep the peace, and then their real views. This isn’t always in relation to gender, but a close friend had a very GC mother, my friend had no strong views either way, but got on well with her mother and would discuss these things. My friend (who is 25) later got into a relationship with a trans woman and through the exposure/ new experience went from ambivalent to being a trans rights campaigner.

I was just wondering if something similar could have happened.

On a side note, as a bisexual woman, I would be a bit disturbed if my mother brought up my partners genitals

As far as I could see she was extremely GC before, she was pretty much the one who started me thinking about it more, and we would read posts here on FWR together and have great discussions. I do understand that many her age might just discuss these things to placate mum, but I feel she had a genuine understanding.

I did not bring up her GFs genitals as I made clear earlier, I just tried to establish where she saw herself. We've always been incredibly close and talked about everything so it didn't feel like an imposition; however, now I avoid it if I can.

OP, this sounds really hard for you, and I sympathise. I would agree with PP to just keep that door open, lots of reminders of your love and support, and avoid the whole issue. Try to be as detached about it as you can. She'll remember the conversations you had in the past - you don't need to have them again. Concentrate on providing a place of peace and sanity (away from all the bullshit in her head.)

This is really helpful. I think I've had this thing where I've felt I needed to have things to say articulately or something, but she will remember back to when we did talk about it. And I am perfectly okay with her finding a new way through it, I just want her to be happy and fulfilled within that, and don't think she is right now.

It sounds like your daughter's new partner isn't making her happy so chances are she will soon move on.

In the meantime, try to spend time with her doing things you know she'll enjoy.

You can give her support without mentioning her partner or having to pretend that you think her partner is good for her. Let her know that you love her - that's all she needs.

@titchy

The whole 'intact male' thing makes no sense to be honest. What does a person' genetalia really have to do with how they experience the world.

Said no woman ever

@titchy

The whole 'intact male' thing makes no sense to be honest. What does a person' genetalia really have to do with how they experience the world.

Said no woman ever

The OP actually laughing at this too. In what sense is talking about your kids partners genitals with them not a massive red-flag? But you see it as a joke, and still wonder why she's angry with you. Amazing.

The OP actually laughing at this too. In what sense is talking about your kids partners genitals with them not a massive red-flag? But you see it as a joke, and still wonder why she's angry with you. Amazing.

Errr it’s not ‘talking about someone’s genitals’ to point out that it’s a little odd for a lesbian to be dating a man (regardless of what he wears or what he calls himself). It’s probably best for the OP to back off on this point though but there’s nothing odd or perverted in recognising someone as being either male or female. We do it daily without any need whatsoever to see any genitals.

How did she lose her friends? It sounds like she is being slowly cut off from her anchors and you're next. Keep everything neutral, just agree to differ, or just listen to her side and hmm along. Make it easy and safe for her to back down and save face, don't force her into a corner. Remind her of all the happy times, treat every day as a fresh start, do little things to make her smile. Look after yourself too, sometimes we have to let things run their course.

So sorry you're going through this OP. Sending hugs. I think you have had some wonderful advice here (and some unpleasant sniping from the TRA/TWAW brigade). The hope I see in this is that the relationships we form at 19 don't often last. A friend's daughter went through something similar. She is a lesbian and, a few years ago, was in a pretty grim relationship with a (much older, intact) trans woman. Tbh it sounded pretty predatory. That has passed and she is now in a much nicer relationship with a lesbian woman of her own age. Keep communication open. Good luck

she keeps quoting dodgy science and stats about suicide

Assuming the relationship is healthy and she's being well treated, this is the bit that would concern me.

Does she feel free to leave if it went sour? Would she think she has to make a bad relationship work to prevent a suicide?

Or is this a totally separate issue?

@GCandautistic

The OP actually laughing at this too. In what sense is talking about your kids partners genitals with them not a massive red-flag? But you see it as a joke, and still wonder why she's angry with you. Amazing.

Errr it’s not ‘talking about someone’s genitals’ to point out that it’s a little odd for a lesbian to be dating a man (regardless of what he wears or what he calls himself). It’s probably best for the OP to back off on this point though but there’s nothing odd or perverted in recognising someone as being either male or female. We do it daily without any need whatsoever to see any genitals.

There are plenty of cis lesbians who date trans women, I know a few personally, and vice versa. Pretty sure none of them would think it is in any way reasonable to talk about their kids partners genitals ever ... No wonder she's angry !

Oh FFS. Her daughter is with someone who can get her pregnant.

1. that is not being homosexual, as her daughter claims to be
2. it's right to be able to recognize a person's male-ness for all sorts of reasons.

Only the most pathologically prudish will have a problem with recognising humans have sex specific bodies.

There are plenty of cis lesbians who date trans women, I know a few personally, and vice versa. Pretty sure none of them would think it is in any way reasonable to talk about their kids partners genitals ever...No wonder she's angry!

No, those women are called bisexual. And talking about the sex of your child’s partner is not ‘talking about their genitals’. Same as me saying that my neighbour is a nice man is not me talking about his genitals.

There are plenty of cis lesbians who date trans women, I know a few personally, and vice versa

There are also plenty of transwomen who identify as lesbians who refuse to date other transwomen, they only date women, purely on the basis that transwoman have male genitals. So why is it ok for some people to recognise people's sex and not other people?

I don't think the trans/gc issue matters here at all, other than it appears to be being used as the topic through which she is trying to communicate with you, OP.

Is she angry with you? Is this her way of trying to express that?

I wonder why she is so angry.

I wonder what she wants from you.

I'd be very worried about her becoming isolated from friends. That seems to be a big red flag. And of course her being unhappy, no wonder you are worried. I'm so sorry, it must amazingly hard to watch.

She's so young, it's unlikely to be a lasting relationship. I'd be worried about her being stuck in an unhealthy dynamic, a controlling relationship, is all.

As others have said, in one of those 'passionate' (unhealthy) relationships, anything that ups the drama only makes the people involved closer to each other. And of course if her partner is trying to control her, then it might be politics are being used as a way to attack you and make you seem more distant, if that makes sense.

Is there any jealousy in the relationship? Lots of break-ups and make-ups? Love-bombing? Any threats or violence?

@GCandautistic

There are plenty of cis lesbians who date trans women, I know a few personally, and vice versa. Pretty sure none of them would think it is in any way reasonable to talk about their kids partners genitals ever...No wonder she's angry!

No, those women are called bisexual. And talking about the sex of your child’s partner is not ‘talking about their genitals’. Same as me saying that my neighbour is a nice man is not me talking about his genitals.

Try reading the OP, he literally talked about her partners genitals. Not that he considered her a "man", which obviously would also be massively insulting and weird.

Defining others gender and sexuality seems to be a hobby for many GC people. You'll find in the real world people take offence to you defining what they are. She's a lesbian, she's in a relationship with a woman, but most importantly self defines as one.