Guardian article: Disaster patriarchy: how the pandemic has unleashed a war on women

[RoyalCorgi]

This article is by V, who used to be known as Eve Ensler (author of The Vaginal Monologues).

It's an excellent article, outlining the impact of things like domestic violence, sexual abuse and female genital mutilation and loss of schooling. Yet she writes: "In this devastating time of Covid we have seen an explosion of violence towards women, whether they are cisgender or gender-diverse."

It seems such a stark illustration of cognitive dissonance, when all the examples she then gives are so clearly of women and girls who have been abused and discriminated against precisely because they are biologically female.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/01/disaster-patriarchy-how-the-pandemic-has-unleashed-a-war-on-women

You are still missing the overall point. Trans women are not taking our struggles as women away from us. They are seeking their own equality alongside us. To be hostile to that is just hateful

Can you please explain how transwomen are doing this by insisting on access to female single sex spaces such as prisons and refuges? How are they seeking equality by removing single sex spaces? How are they seeking equality when they seek to remove the provision of female medical examiners from being able to be requested and confidently provided for female rape victims as evidenced by the push in the Scottish government?

I think that the point being missed here is by you actually. Because there have been now numerous examples in answer to 'In what way could a trans woman, someone who has rejected their masculinity and instead taken on the social roles and presentation of a woman, represent the patriarchy?'.

And you have not given any discussion except to imply that any poster providing you with examples is 'hateful' and 'phobic'.

extract

"It matters to be trans in a world that has created a binary wherein there is only “masculine” or “feminine.” That room must exist in between and outside those categories is necessary if we ever dream of living outside their confines.

What I’m asking is not that the suffering and real lives of transgender people be ignored, but that we acknowledge that context, history, and socialization are real and also matter. That when little girls are taught to be pretty and polite, to not take up space, to spend their lives on a diet, to be desirable but also that they will be punished through that desirability, those experiences matter and happen to us because we are born female.

That we learn to understand our sexualities only in relation to what men want matters. That we learn our bodies are not ours, but public commodities, matters. That we learn our boundaries are “rude” and that they will be violated matters. That we must fear those we depend on (or even love) for our survival matters. That we learn to put ourselves last and to “sit down and shut up” matters.

That we learn solidarity with men will get us further than solidarity with women matters. We aren’t fighting against trans people, we are fighting for our lives and the right to speak about our lives, bodies, history, and oppression, as a class. We are also fighting against the notion that either femininity or masculinity are innate parts of our beings, an idea that reinforces male power and female subordination."

Continues

www.feministcurrent.com/2015/06/17/you-cant-feel-race-but-can-you-feel-female-on-rachel-dolezal-caitlyn-jenner-and-unspeakable-questions/

What rights do trans people not have Pat? Women have sex based rights because, for millennia, men have abused and exploited us and our bodies. Because of our BIOLOGY. Biology no man has and so they are in no need of our SEX based rights.

I find it amazing that women fight so hard to hand over their SEX based rights to male bodied people. They were nowhere to be seen when women were fighting for their rights yet so many women bend backwards for them.

Do you think these people would fight so hard for YOU, Pat?

Interesting blog from a post-op transsexual here.

extract

So what is the solution? Well, let’s be clear on one thing from the start. As M to F transsexuals, we can never be real women. However distasteful we may find it, and however hard some transsexuals may argue against it, the inescapable fact is that we’ve grown up with gender privilege. We’ve been taught to compete, take power and demand what should be ours. And we’ve done it for so long that we don’t even notice it happening. What’s more, it’s likely that the women we’ve known so far have been too sympathetic and made far too many allowances. No one has told us the way it is – not the doctor’s, not the psychiatrists, not the surgeons. “You want to be a woman? Fine! Take the tablets, wear a dress, and learn to use make-up”. Nobody, but nobody, mentions women’s politics, women’s culture or letting go of male power. (How would they? With few exceptions the gender practitioners are almost exclusively male) So nobody prepares us. And when the ‘rejection’ comes it feels personal, hurtful and very, very scary. And sometimes we can react in the wrong ways.

But, however understandable it may be, demanding equal treatment is not acceptable – or productive. However strongly we may identify as women, as transsexuals we need to acknowledge that we are different. We don’t know what it’s like to grow up as a girl in a male dominated society, we’ll never experience women’s puberty and menopause, we can’t conjure up the social experience of growing up female, or know what it’s like to bleed….. Of course we can approximate the physical shape and we may well consider that, inside, we feel the same as born-women feel. But, demonstrably – and however much we may wish otherwise – we cannot be the same. If we can learn to respect this difference openly – then we can embrace the solution that it offers.

First, trans-women should be scrupulously honest about their past. We should be sensitive to the fears and perceptions of others, respectful of women’s space and the vulnerability that is sometimes found within it. We should accept that there are groups where our presence is not appropriate, and groups where it is. And we should stop acting like we still have the privileges that we grew up with. That means making an effort to understand just what it may feel like to grow up as a woman rather than as a man. It means reading about and digesting as much of women’s history as we can; understanding what the struggle for equality was – and is - about. It means talking to women about their reservations and fears about us. And doing it all that without becoming angry or hurt, defensive or aggressive.

But respect works both ways, and trans-women can’t do this alone. Often they won’t even begin to understand the issues involved. I was lucky. Like most post-op transsexuals I trotted out the mantra, “I’m a woman, you have to accept me.” But my first (lesbian) girlfriend was a strong woman and – thank goodness - she set me right: teaching me about difference, explaining the politics, making me think about the reality of entering the lesbian community, and the reservations of some of the women I would meet along the way. I learnt that I should walk away respectfully when I wasn’t invited in, that I should feel honoured at the gift of inclusion when it was given, and that I should listen and learn from the women who I wished to live among. It wasn’t easy – when you are vulnerable and insecure, criticism and rejection hurts. But slowly my male perceptions began to change as I came to understand how very different it was to live in a women’s community. I began to understand too, how I could still have the freedom to be me - but in a way that was also respectful and gracious to those who had been born as women.

Continues: <a class="break-all" href="https://href.li/?www.femininebyte.org/sapphos_party/m2cfspeaks.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">href.li/?www.femininebyte.org/sapphos_party/m2cfspeaks.htm

To claim trans women as an oppressor is to deny their struggles and our privileged position by comparison.

No. Just NO. Transwomen do have their own struggles, and they need a robust set of rights that protect them and their needs. They do NOT, however, deserve to have rights that negatively impact the rights of women and girls, of females however they identify. If you cannot see the negative impacts in the examples that are being posted, are you just willfully ignoring them?

For instance, do you have any considered comments on the negative impact on transwomen's inclusion in female sport?

You've come on here - Patrichiarchy - welcome to Mumsnet, btw - to call us 'hateful' 'bigots' and 'transphobes'? To berate women for being 'outspoken'? Amazing.

You are still missing the overall point. Trans women are not taking our struggles as women away from us. They are seeking their own equality alongside us. To be hostile to that is just hateful

Oh, are they not taking our struggles away? I bloody wish someone would.

Equality in what way? What rights do trans people not have? Equality of what?!

I think, Pat, that you are calling disagreement hatred, and women's refusal to agree with you bigotry. But I take it that you've had your say, called us the insults you brought with you, and are now flouncing.

Shame on you.

In what way could a trans woman, someone who has rejected their masculinity and instead taken on the social roles and presentation of a woman, represent the patriarchy?

???????? you're joking, yes?

Arabella

I think the hypocrisy of denying that they did indeed stigmatise and abuse people replying to their posts when they used language like 'transphobic', standing on necks, hateful among others, might have been a bit too much.

As soon as they denied that, I think that readers realised there was no coming back from it with any credibility.

I feel the crucial line in that guardian article Pat links to is this

The types of crimes that the groups were victim to was not included in the data

I can easily believe that police records may show a large number of trans people reporting 'hate crimes', such as misgendering etc. Whereas misogyny is so normalised and endemic in society that it isn't considered a hate crime, and mostly women don't bother reporting the actual physical offences perpetrated against them - rape, domestic violence and sexual assault - because they know conviction rates are so vanishingly small.

Tragically though, the death stats don't lie. Three women a week killed by their partners alone. Without even including those women who die at the hands of men outside of their homes.

Transgender people in England and Wales are twice as likely to be victims of crime as cisgender people

AND another thing ... what kind of 'crime' is this referring to? Are we talking about VAWG, violent crime? Or are we talking about something like stickers?

Because I have seen people encouraging trans people to report these things as hate crime. Which makes one suspect that all crimes are perhaps not equal.

Oh, cross post, Winter.

Yes, rape has been described as 'effectively decriminalised' in the UK.

Meanwhile a woman is being called for questioning over ... well, nobody knows. Something she said on Twitter.

Here's the thing.

If you call someone insulting and intimidating words in the street because they're trans that would (rightly!) be a hate crime.

If you call someone insulting and intimidating words in the street because they're of a particular ethnicity, that would (rightly!) be a hate crime.

If you call someone insulting and intimidating words in the street because they're female, that wouldn't be a hate crime.

Why? Someone shouting words at me from their car that refer to my femaleness feels damn hateful to me. As discussed, 71-86% of women have been subjected to that or something that escalated beyond that (e.g. physical assault.) That's a lot of hate crimes against women, eh?

Cross post with... everyone!

I'm very grateful to those with the patience I lack 👏

@Doyoumind

I'm very grateful to those with the patience I lack 👏

Yes but it has also been an effective derail from discusbsing the impact of policies introduced around the pandemic on women.

That is true.

extract

For the first time in eight months, the economy saw a dip in job growth with140,000 jobs lostin December. All of these jobs, according to an analysis from theNational Women’s Law Center, belonged to women, emphasizing the disastrous impact the coronavirus pandemic is continuing to have on women in the workforce.

In December, women lost a total of 156,000 jobs, while men gained 16,000 jobs, according to NWLC. Of the net 9.8 million jobs lost since February, women have accounted for 55% of them.

Continues: www.cnbc.com/2021/01/11/women-account-for-100percent-of-jobs-lost-in-december-new-analysis.html

@ArabellaScott

You've come on here - Patrichiarchy - welcome to Mumsnet, btw - to call us 'hateful' 'bigots' and 'transphobes'? To berate women for being 'outspoken'? Amazing.

You are still missing the overall point. Trans women are not taking our struggles as women away from us. They are seeking their own equality alongside us. To be hostile to that is just hateful

Oh, are they not taking our struggles away? I bloody wish someone would.

Equality in what way? What rights do trans people not have? Equality of what?!

I think, Pat, that you are calling disagreement hatred, and women's refusal to agree with you bigotry. But I take it that you've had your say, called us the insults you brought with you, and are now flouncing.

Shame on you.

Thats not at all what I joined mumsnet for, but its sadly the way this thread has ended up. If you look at the post history, this all started with me trying to be helpful and then suddenly having to defend a position from attack.

To me, the fundamentals of some of the arguments made here attempting to paint trans women as an opressor of cis women read to me as being hateful and bigoted.The trans community as a whole is so marginalised, I cant see how anyone can make this claim with a straight face. Those same people are yet to provide me with any insight into how trans women are anything other than allies, instead posting stats about how we are maligned as cis women and making bad faith arguments about my position and trans women in sport, which in spite of the amount of press it gets, is an extremely marginal issue.

I didnt come here to sling insults and I apologise for getting heated. I think we are coming from intractable positions where the default for some of the posters here is that trans women are still men, which whilst the majority opinion here, isnt reflective of the outside world.

Don't shame me for having a heart. Shame on those who would seek to deny acceptance and equality for others int he name of feminism.

I'll stop posting now, I dont think this community is for me.

Twitter thread

The precarious position women’s rights and empowerment are in really hits me when I think about how covid disproportionately affected women. Too many think of women’s rights as a linear and upward trajectory, like we can’t go backwards.

But the second the pandemic hit, domestic violence cases went through the roof globally. By 30% in France. By 400% in Jordan. The number of rapes in Niger tripled.

Financially, women have been screwed over for a generation. Women were more likely to work low wage jobs already, and were twice as likely to lose their jobs in the pandemic than men. In America, four times as many women left the workforce as men.

They were also more likely to choose to stay at home with kids when schools closed, because of societal expectations on women, and because women’s careers are taken less seriously... in a word, because patriarchy. So more women left the workforce “of their own volition.”

But the part that haunts me is that research projects that the jobs that women lost? Those jobs are likely to not come back. Men are already beginning to return to the workforce in a way women aren’t.

Women are overrepresented in retail and service jobs, and those jobs aren’t going to bounce back for years. Add to that the fact that women who’ve left the workforce are being heavily tasked with childcare and domestic duties? The effects of this are going to last a generation.

Continues: twitter.com/cache_pas/status/1399093432337981440?s=19

Pat, I believe the most vulnerable group in the.world might be babies under 1, but someone else will have the stats there.

Have you considered women in prison?

The employee tellsKIRO Radio’s Dori Monson Showthat the women’s facility in Pierce County has adopted the practice of allowing a transfer for any person who identifies as female. Those transfers are being housing in the general population with female cellmates, the employee says.

(Continues)

The concern among staff and inmates is a risk of sexual assault. The employee cites a recent incident in which an inmate from a male facility raped a female in the women’s prison upon arrival. The transferred inmate, according to the employee, is incarcerated for a sex offense and has “fully functional male genitalia, a history of violence and sexual depravity in the community, and has been found guilty of sexual assault against other inmates while housed in the men’s facilities.”

“He is a proven sexual predator, having committed multiple crimes against women, yet the State of Washington had no problem moving him into a women’s facility and housing him with the most vulnerable in our population (our mental health unit),” the employee wrote.

Continues: mynorthwest.com/2666243/doc-washington-correctional-center-women-men-transfer/

How many women being raped in prison is an acceptable price for you?

trans women are still men, which whilst the majority opinion here, isnt reflective of the outside world.

It would be correct to say that tranwomen are males (because no one is denying biology we are told) and if you read the inference from surveys such as the recent 'youGov' survey, THAT is the majority view in the UK.

I am not sure how many times it can be said. Transwomen need and deserve their own rights to protect them. The focus on this board is to discuss the rights of females, however they identify.

Sadly, you have not addressed any points raised. In fact you have minimised them. Just you you have completely off handedly minimised female sport as being a 'marginal' issue.

Okay, well thanks for coming back to say that, Patrichiarchy.

It's not easy to discuss these issues if everyone gets 'heated'. Perhaps if you tried to talk to us as human beings, as women who are just as compassionate and informed as you are, but with different views, we may actually get somewhere.

You maybe didn't realise how offensive some of the things you've said came across. Apologies if I've said something to offend you; that was not my intent.

I would still like to hear what 'social roles' mean in terms of women. Could you explain that?

I do not apologise for asking you to look at Laurel Hubbard as an example of transwomen taking away from women.

I think it is a pity you couldn't be open enough to consider the issue.

Let me take your post bit by bit:

To me, the fundamentals of some of the arguments made here attempting to paint trans women as an opressor of cis women

The argument is that males are oppressors of women. This is the basic tenet of radical feminism. Trans or whatever, it's the sex of people that matters.

The trans community as a whole is so marginalised, I cant see how anyone can make this claim with a straight face.

Have you heard of intersectionality? Roxane Gay has a good essay on how privilege and oppression can coexist, usually do coexist in the same person or situation. Trans people may well face problems in their lives; this doesn't mean they don't also have some advantages, specifically, males benefit from male advantages. These include both physical advantages like freedom from some of the issues I listed before, and socialised advantages (female socialisation starts from pre-birth).

Those same people are yet to provide me with any insight into how trans women are anything other than allies

Yes, some transwomen are allies to women. Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley, some posters on here, too, are all very aware of the issues women face (and also realistic about their own sex status, fwiw).

the default for some of the posters here is that trans women are still men, which whilst the majority opinion here, isnt reflective of the outside world.

In what way is a transwoman not male? This is just the very straightforward statement of fact. If it weren't, there would be no need for the 'trans' bit at the beginning.

Don't shame me for having a heart. Shame on those who would seek to deny acceptance and equality for others int he name of feminism.

Your heart is apparently cognisant of the difficulties faced by transwomen. That's great. Feminists on here centre women, and our hearts are focussed on the possibility of liberating women.

As for acceptance and equality - what does this actually mean? Trans rights are human rights? Fine. Great. Of course transpeople deserve the same rights as everyone else. They just can't have more rights than others, or rights that impinge on other people's. If a woman with a trauma history that means she is terrified of males, and is on a hospital ward with a transwoman whom she is sure is going to attack her, is that bigotry? If a rapist is put into a woman's history because of self identifying as a woman, is that fair? Genuinely?

Do you not have any compassion for the terrified woman in the hospital ward, for the woman in prison who has been a victim of sexual assault from a transwoman?

You're totally free to centre transwomen over women, of course. That's your choice. But don't be surprised if, on the 'feminism' board, you encounter women who disagree.

Oh, ffs, excuse the missing quotes/italics. Hopefully it's clear which points are quotes and which are my responses.