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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian article: Disaster patriarchy: how the pandemic has unleashed a war on women

104 replies

RoyalCorgi · 01/06/2021 10:07

This article is by V, who used to be known as Eve Ensler (author of The Vaginal Monologues).

It's an excellent article, outlining the impact of things like domestic violence, sexual abuse and female genital mutilation and loss of schooling. Yet she writes: "In this devastating time of Covid we have seen an explosion of violence towards women, whether they are cisgender or gender-diverse."

It seems such a stark illustration of cognitive dissonance, when all the examples she then gives are so clearly of women and girls who have been abused and discriminated against precisely because they are biologically female.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/01/disaster-patriarchy-how-the-pandemic-has-unleashed-a-war-on-women

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/06/2021 15:02

For you, Patrichiarchy
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Patrichiarchy · 01/06/2021 15:03

@ArabellaScott

to those who present as women, regardless of their biological sex at birth. Presumably trans women also get the same poo-ey end of the patriarchy stick as cis women?

Eh? In what sense does 'presenting as a woman' mean that someone is subject to patriarchal oppression? This is nothing to do with hair, makeup or clothing.

Women are oppressed because of their sex. No transwoman has to deal with the many biological factors a woman has to factor in to her life. They ain't dealing with the reproductive burden, and that is the end of it.

No not in terms of reproductive burden, but in terms of societal oppression, if you couldnt tell a trans woman from a cis woman, how would they not be subject to the same patriarchical issues?
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/06/2021 15:08

Your if is doing very heavy lifting there.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/there-no-legal-bars-woman-10297113

Also an advisor to Stonewall.

Tibtom · 01/06/2021 15:10

You can always tell a man from a woman regardless of clothes and extreme cosmetic surgery.

But you are behind the times to think a man has to change his presentation to identify as a transwoman. And I have yet to see a push for transwomen to take on the caring roles that women do, the emotional or domestic labour. To be the 'support humans' expected of women and girls.

MoonlightApple · 01/06/2021 15:15

That whole article got me fuming. Seeing it clearly presented like that how so much of life is stacked against women. I had to donate a tenner to my local women’s shelter to calm down my feelings of impotent rage Angry

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/06/2021 15:16

Did you know that there are efforts to rebrand one class of people as TME- standing for TransMisogynyExempt and TMA- TransMisogynyAffected? The argument being that women experience privilege.

If we can't tell transwomen and women apart, why the need for these terms?

Extract

AFAB trans people, including non binary people, are whats known as trans misogyny exempt. Trans misogyny is a specific brand of transphobia and misogyny that AMAB trans people face and is the reason why trans women, especially black trans women, are disproportionately targeted and harrassed or assaulted by transphobic people. A good example of this is that while TERFs are transphobic they're specifically trans misogynistic and are more of a danger to transfemme people than transmasc people.

This gets more complicated when you factor in intersex people who may face trans misogyny because of their condition but are otherwise AFAB and when trans misogyny is misdirected at passing or mostly passing trans men who may be briefly mistaken for trans women.

www.quora.com/Do-AFAB-nonbinary-femmes-have-privilege-over-AMAB-non-femme-individuals-Is-there-a-power-dynamic-there-What-is-it?share=1

hipsterfun · 01/06/2021 15:21

In what way could a trans woman, someone who has rejected their masculinity and instead taken on the social roles and presentation of a woman, represent the patriarchy?

It’s the height of patriarchal thinking to imagine that role play and costume make a chap a woman.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/06/2021 15:23

Another source

Transmisogyny-affected (adjective)

Systemically targeted bytransmisogyny. People with atransfemininegender identity areTMA.

Transmisogyny-exempt (adjective)

Systemically benefitting fromtransmisogyny. Sometimes shortened toTME. People without atransfemininegender identity areTME.

kravitzi.medium.com/gender-identities-and-terminology-an-abridged-but-not-so-basic-guide-d5ba7d2806fa

So that's us, everyone. If you're not a transwoman, you systematically benefit from transmisogyny.

But how on earth do they tell? It's a mystery, isn't it. 🧐

Patrichiarchy · 01/06/2021 15:37

@hipsterfun

In what way could a trans woman, someone who has rejected their masculinity and instead taken on the social roles and presentation of a woman, represent the patriarchy?

It’s the height of patriarchal thinking to imagine that role play and costume make a chap a woman.

This is rubbish. Feminism is about freeing all of us from a patriarchical system and achieving equality regardless of gender. All I did was answer a question about definitions and it seems to have sent out some anti-trans warcry.

So much of the thinking here isnt feminism, its bigotry thinly veiled as victimhood. I'm disappointed to have so many share the feminist label with me think that their struggle somehow excuses victimising others. For shame.

ArabellaScott · 01/06/2021 15:42

What is gender, Patrichiarchy?

ArabellaScott · 01/06/2021 15:46

In what way could a trans woman, someone who has rejected their masculinity and instead taken on the social roles and presentation of a woman, represent the patriarchy? Do you really think this is some secret plot to overthrow womens rights with men? As opposed to another woman in different circumstances fighting for the same rights you have?

What is 'masculinity'? WTF is the 'social role' of a woman, and do you know how offensive that sounds?

As for a plot - yes, it's not secret, though.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 01/06/2021 15:53

Half term again, eh.

Tibtom · 01/06/2021 15:59

Gender is the antithesis of feminism

Annasgirl · 01/06/2021 16:01

@Patrichiarchy

Feminism is about women. We know what that means, but to clarify for the mid term warriors, a woman is an adult human female.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/06/2021 16:16

This is a good read on the concept of gender.

From here: 4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls”

...and it’s deeply rooted in misogyny

M. K. Fain

14 Jul 2019

In the summer of 2018 I lived in a house with three other women. We spent a lot of time together that year, and there were many late-night conversations about the sexism, misogyny, and male violence we had experienced. We talked about not fitting into what society had expected of women, we stopped shaving together, and we encouraged each other to not be ashamed of our natural bodies. We called rape crisis lines, organized protests, and exposed violent men in our communities. Mitali shaved her head in a defiant act of rebellion against Indian expectations of beauty. Joy became empowered to use her voice to speak up for the oppressed. Miriam* started to confront her religious parents and come to terms with her sexuality. The four of us dreamt of what a feminist world could look like and envisioned our lives free from patriarchy and violence.

Now, one year later, all three of them identify as “non-binary” — no longer a woman.

According to theHuman Rights Campaign, non-binary means:

An adjective describing a person who does not identify exclusively as a man or a woman. Non-binary people may identify as being both a man and a woman, somewhere in between, or as falling completely outside these categories.

So how did three feminist women who were bravely defying gender norms and tackling the male violence in their lives suddenly decide they are non-women?

Non-binary identities are on the rise. In the UK, the number of non-binary students appears to havedoubledbetween 2017 and 2018. Withtwo-thirdsof young people who identify as trans being female, it’s likely that most of the growth in non-binary identities has come from young women. While there is a dearth of research in this area, my experience is not unique. To feminists, this should not come as a surprise.

A2018 articlein Teen Vogue outlined the experience of one non-binary woman:

I reject the whole concept of gender. Growing up, I never felt people were wrong when they called me a woman, but it felt like a label imposed on me rather than one that fit. Then, in college, I learned about non-binary identity, and that did fit. Sure, I have likes and dislikes that some might label “feminine” or “masculine,” but I don’t feel any need to label them that way. The gender binary has made me feel pigeonholed, and I don’t want to identify with it.

Feminists have long rejected theconcept of gender, defining it as oppressive sex-role stereotyping and maintaining the goal of abolishing the gender caste system. Rather than rejecting gender, the writer in Teen Vogue seems to have bought into it entirely, believing that she must not be a woman simply because she does not fully meet the expectations of womanhood. Does she think her experience of being falsely categorized by gender is unique? Is she “not like other girls”?

An article on the websiteAeonran a few months later with the subtitle: “A world segregated into male and female categories feels suffocating. Nonbinary identity is a radical escape hatch.” The author claims that non-binary identities are taking a “sledgehammer” to gender categories, tackling the oppressive system, and creating a better world for all. She tells stories of facing threats and embarrassment caused by confusion about her sex. In one case, a man yelled at her for going into the women’s bathroom.

Women who aim to identify out of womanhood are going to be sorely disappointed, though.

Gender is a system that oppresses us and isinherently contradictory. No woman can ever be fully gender-conforming (though some certainly try more than others) and since gender has been socially constructed we all exist outside of this binary at our core. There is nothing inherent about a gender identity, and claiming otherwise is anti-feminist.

Consider for example the various gender non-conforming activities a typical western woman may do on any given day:

Putting on pants rather than a skirtGoing to work rather than staying at homeNot smiling at every man she see on the streetWearing her hair naturallySpeaking her mindSpending time thinking about anything other than pleasing men or how she looksEnjoying a sci-fi movie or tv showMaking a joke

This may all seem trivial, but when we look at the obviously ridiculous ways in which normal life is gendered it becomes clear that no woman alive could possibly be entirely gender-conforming. If a woman does actually meet all stereotypical markers of femininity, she would likely be considered a whore (regardless of her actual sexual activity). Personally, I refuse to wear makeup, allow my body hair to grow naturally, wear pants and boots rather than dresses and heels, work as a software engineer, reject wifely duties with my male partner, and plan to never have children as long as it remains in my control. Am I non-binary?

The hardcore gender advocates would say that no, I am not, because I still identify as a woman. I accept that I am female, that my body is a female one which is regulated by the state, that I have survived girlhood and male violence which I experiencedbecause I am a female.

I’m sympathetic to the desire of many women and girls to escape our female-ness. Growing up as a girl-child in this society is not easy. You will never be pretty enough, smart enough, or wanted enough. Or you will be too pretty, too smart, or too wanted. Either way, it’s probably your fault.

Mitali knew that when she returned to visit India she would be at risk of assault even though she shaved her head. This week a mother and daughter in India werebeaten and had their heads shavenin public as punishment for resisting rape. While in the United States she may be able to claim to be a non-woman, women who walk more treacherous roads do not have the privilege of opting out of womanhood. Could these women have avoided the violence and humiliation by claiming to be non-women? Their womanhood will be forced upon them whether they want it or not; and who would want it?

Miriam feels uncomfortable in her female body. She has breasts, and curves, and a vulva. Her body is not like the models’ on the magazines, and she dreams of cutting it open and escaping the confines of her flesh. She wants to be allowed to exist beyond the expectations of womanhood that the patriarchy places on her physical form. Men are allowed to exist in this way, as whole people independent from the shell that houses their mind. Yet, she knows she is not a man. She knows this because of the way her body is controlled and policed. She says “Gender is Over,” but then why couldn’t she escape it?

Joy is scared and angry. She saw what happened to her friends who were women. She heard the horror stories and she watched us all try to cope and escape in the ways we could manage. She held Mitali and Miriam close as they cried in the night and searched for healing and meaning. No wonder she wanted nothing to do with it anymore. Being a woman is fucking horrible.

I mourn for these women who have disowned their womanhood, choosing to run and hide from the oppression of their gender rather than boldly reject its power over their selfhood. To have so much pain, misogyny, and fear inside of you is to live in a constant state of unsettledness, never feeling safe or comfortable. In our last days together, I tried to show thema feminism that rejects genderrather than embraces its lies — but since I am “female” and they are “not” I could not possibly understand their pain. They said I was hateful.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Women and girls should be able to live in a world free from gender and all forms of patriarchy and male violence. We should be allowed to be women and be complex, creative, and whole. We should not have to reject our biological reality in favor of magical thinking in order to cope with the world in which we live.

Non-binary women are a testament to the great pain of being a woman, and the desperate need many of us have to find an escape. At the same time, women who claim to be non-binary throw all other women and girls under the bus. The claim that we are privileged for identifying with the sex “assigned to us at birth” misses the inherent violence in being a female under patriarchy. In some countries,70% of womenhave experienced sexual or physical violence from an intimate partner. 137 women are killedevery dayby a member of their own family. At least200 millionwomen and girls alive today have experienced genital mutilation, mostly before the age of five. This is why feminists argue forsex-based rightsfor women and girls.

Those who are the most non-conforming, no matter how they identify, will face oppression for transgressing social norms. Women areespecially likelyto be targeted for violence and discrimination based on gender non-conformity. This is true regardless of how the woman identifies, since the attacker can not know the internal “gender identity” of the woman before the prejudice occurs.

The uncomfortable truth is this: saying you are “not like other girls” is not an identity,it’s misogyny.Non-binary-identifying women like to claim an extra degree of oppression over women who they call “cis,” a term which implies that certain women are complicit in their own oppression. But we are not privileged for maintaining an understanding of the basis of our oppression; you are privileged if you believe you can escape it.

*Names changed

Updates:

In July of 2019, I was fired from my unrelated job for writing this piece.

ArabellaScott · 01/06/2021 16:20

No not in terms of reproductive burden, but in terms of societal oppression, if you couldnt tell a trans woman from a cis woman, how would they not be subject to the same patriarchical issues?

As noted by a pp, that 'if' is working hard.

However, let's look at this hypothetical indistinguishable transwoman - they will not be subject to many issues pertaining to their health - did you know how poorly women's health is researched and supported? This applies to many features of femaleness beyond reproductive organs - read up on 'bikini medecine' if you are interested.

They will be far safer from violence - transwomen are such a safe demographic I believe not one has been murdered in three years in the UK, though I'd need to double check the figures. Whereas of course women are being killed at a horrifying rate, especially since the pandemic.

They will not be inconvenienced by menstruation.

They will not be inconvenienced or affected by pregnancy or the risk of pregnancy.

They will not be impacted by post partum issues, breastfeeding, childcare, or any of the myriad other issues that do have very real impacts for women.

As they will not ever experience pregnancy or give birth, they will not be subject to the same judgement and oppression faced by mothers.

That's off the top of my head, I'm sure there are plenty more ways this hypothetical transwoman will be safer and free of oppression than a woman.

What 'oppression' did you have in mind?

Patrichiarchy · 01/06/2021 16:32

@ArabellaScott

No not in terms of reproductive burden, but in terms of societal oppression, if you couldnt tell a trans woman from a cis woman, how would they not be subject to the same patriarchical issues?

As noted by a pp, that 'if' is working hard.

However, let's look at this hypothetical indistinguishable transwoman - they will not be subject to many issues pertaining to their health - did you know how poorly women's health is researched and supported? This applies to many features of femaleness beyond reproductive organs - read up on 'bikini medecine' if you are interested.

They will be far safer from violence - transwomen are such a safe demographic I believe not one has been murdered in three years in the UK, though I'd need to double check the figures. Whereas of course women are being killed at a horrifying rate, especially since the pandemic.

They will not be inconvenienced by menstruation.

They will not be inconvenienced or affected by pregnancy or the risk of pregnancy.

They will not be impacted by post partum issues, breastfeeding, childcare, or any of the myriad other issues that do have very real impacts for women.

As they will not ever experience pregnancy or give birth, they will not be subject to the same judgement and oppression faced by mothers.

That's off the top of my head, I'm sure there are plenty more ways this hypothetical transwoman will be safer and free of oppression than a woman.

What 'oppression' did you have in mind?

Pointing out that the 'if' is working hard in that statement is just being transphobic, you arent even hiding it. Plenty of trans women pass. Plenty dont.

Yes, I know how poorly womens health is researched, I also now how underfunded and poorly researched trans healthcare is in every sense.

Transgender people suffer a hugely disproportionate rate of violence and murder. They are twice as likely to be victims of a crime than cisgender people.

Menstruation, pregnancy, PPD etc are not features of the patriarchy.

I didnt say their struggles would be identical, but to deny that there are shared struggles that make trans women allies rather than oppressors is just rationalising transphobia in some pseudo-logical way so you dont look bad

Helleofabore · 01/06/2021 16:33

In what way could a trans woman, someone who has rejected their masculinity and instead taken on the social roles and presentation of a woman, represent the patriarchy?

Well, let's see.

Sport. They are part of a group that have historically suppressed women's sport, have denigrated it as being 'lesser' and so on, and now, they cannot recognise that their insistence on participation is and will continue to the harm of girls and women. Physically, mentally and harm to girls and women's futures.

Or do you think that a person with the benefits of having a male puberty so how loses every single one of those benefits so that they can compete with females safely and fairly.

Here some of the science in case you are interested. I have included the second link which is a review of the same information by a transwoman.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/06/2021 16:35

extract

More than four-fifths of young women in the UK have been subjected to sexual harassment, according to a survey for UNWomenUK, which warns that most women have lost faith that the abuse will be dealt with.

Among women aged 18-24, 86% said they had been sexually harassed in public spaces, while just 3% did not recall ever having experienced sexually harassing behaviour. The remaining 11% chose not to answer the question.

According to the survey, published in areport by the all-party parliamentary group (APPG) for UN Women, 71% of women of any age said they had experienced sexual harassment in public spaces.

“This is a human rights crisis. It’s just not enough for us to keep saying ‘this is too difficult a problem for us to solve’ – it needs addressing now,” said Claire Barnett, executive director of UN Women UK.

“We are looking at a situation where younger women are constantly modifying their behaviour in an attempt to avoid being objectified or attacked, and older women are reporting serious concerns about personal safety if they ever leave the house in the dark – even during the daytime in winter.”

Source: www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/10/almost-all-young-women-in-the-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-survey-finds

How does one double numbers like 71% and 86%?

ArabellaScott · 01/06/2021 16:37

Transgender people suffer a hugely disproportionate rate of violence and murder. They are twice as likely to be victims of a crime than cisgender people.

The murder figures suggest otherwise. What data are you using to draw this conclusion?

Menstruation, pregnancy, PPD etc are not features of the patriarchy

The way in which the world operates means that women are at a disadvantage because of these things.

What is it you think 'the patriarchy' is?

And you can save all the accusations of bigotry and transphobia. We've heard them all before, they are meaningless. We all know they're nonsense, so if you wish to try and capture hearts and minds then try arguing the points, rather than slinging insults.

TheoMeo · 01/06/2021 16:39

if you couldnt tell a trans woman from a cis woman, how would they not be subject to the same patriarchical issues?

Because they grew up male so have the inherent confidence and arrogance that bestows.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/06/2021 16:39

31% of young women aged 18-24 report having experienced sexual abuse in childhood (NSPCC, 2011)

20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to 3.4 million female and 631,000 male victims
3.1% of women (510,000) and 0.8% of men (138,000) aged 16 to 59 had experienced a sexual assault in the last year.

rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/

Patrichiarchy · 01/06/2021 16:41

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

extract

More than four-fifths of young women in the UK have been subjected to sexual harassment, according to a survey for UNWomenUK, which warns that most women have lost faith that the abuse will be dealt with.

Among women aged 18-24, 86% said they had been sexually harassed in public spaces, while just 3% did not recall ever having experienced sexually harassing behaviour. The remaining 11% chose not to answer the question.

According to the survey, published in areport by the all-party parliamentary group (APPG) for UN Women, 71% of women of any age said they had experienced sexual harassment in public spaces.

“This is a human rights crisis. It’s just not enough for us to keep saying ‘this is too difficult a problem for us to solve’ – it needs addressing now,” said Claire Barnett, executive director of UN Women UK.

“We are looking at a situation where younger women are constantly modifying their behaviour in an attempt to avoid being objectified or attacked, and older women are reporting serious concerns about personal safety if they ever leave the house in the dark – even during the daytime in winter.”

Source: www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/10/almost-all-young-women-in-the-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-survey-finds

How does one double numbers like 71% and 86%?

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales
Tibtom · 01/06/2021 16:41

Transgender people suffer a hugely disproportionate rate of violence and murder.

That is a lie. Transwomen have the lowest rate of murder of any demographic worldwide. In the UK there are more transwomen murderers than there are transwomen murdered. Even in Brazil where there are more transwomen murdered than anywhere else they are still murdered at rate much lower than women and an order of magnitude less than other men.

Patrichiarchy · 01/06/2021 16:44

@ArabellaScott

Transgender people suffer a hugely disproportionate rate of violence and murder. They are twice as likely to be victims of a crime than cisgender people.

The murder figures suggest otherwise. What data are you using to draw this conclusion?

Menstruation, pregnancy, PPD etc are not features of the patriarchy

The way in which the world operates means that women are at a disadvantage because of these things.

What is it you think 'the patriarchy' is?

And you can save all the accusations of bigotry and transphobia. We've heard them all before, they are meaningless. We all know they're nonsense, so if you wish to try and capture hearts and minds then try arguing the points, rather than slinging insults.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales

Yes, but the answer lies in dismantling the structures underpinning those disparities, not in maligning others that also seek equality.

But it IS bigotry and transphobia. The language and assumptions made by people throughout this thread is evidence of that. You cant want equality for yourself by keeping others from seeking it themselves.

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