Schoolgirl, 15, ‘stopped from using toilet while on period’

[WinnieSmith]

Schoolgirl, 15, ‘stopped from using toilet while on period’ then put in seclusion

metro.co.uk/2021/05/31/schoolgirl-15-stopped-from-using-toilet-while-on-her-period-14680071/

"...we do ask that students make every effort to do this during break and lunch time to minimise disruption to lessons..."

How else can you keep them safe? Obviously a societal overhaul regarding acceptable behaviour would be the ideal solution. But that won't happen quickly so we need another option.

Flooding and just getting used to periods are relatively rare and if a female student asked I'd let them go. It's when they then ask the week after, and the week after that it becomes clear the period wasn't the real reason.

It still seems to me that the students that need to use the toilet during lesson time are being penalised by some students that use the lesson pass to take the piss/bully

As has been said by pretty much every teacher on the thread, we would let the pupil nip to the loo (assuming this isn’t the 3rd week on the trot they’ve claimed they have a period).

If you have a better suggestion for how to let pupils nip to the loo anytime they feel like it. With zero safeguarding issues and no lesson time wasted - we are all ears.

@WhenSheWasBad

It still seems to me that the students that need to use the toilet during lesson time are being penalised by some students that use the lesson pass to take the piss/bully

As has been said by pretty much every teacher on the thread, we would let the pupil nip to the loo (assuming this isn’t the 3rd week on the trot they’ve claimed they have a period).

If you have a better suggestion for how to let pupils nip to the loo anytime they feel like it. With zero safeguarding issues and no lesson time wasted - we are all ears.

You may be all ears, but I highly doubt any suggestion I could make would be meaningful as I am not a secondary teacher. I was merely entering into conversation/debate as a mother of a dd who has recently experienced this

ChloeDecker wrote - "What’s depressing is that you are not acknowledging/appreciating the fact that there are teenage girls who don’t tell the truth, which makes it harder for the ones that do and that there are solutions but you don’t seem to be happy with them or coming up with your own vesuvia"

Are you seriously trying compare, in some weird "depression olympics", my being depressed that girls are obstructed in their menstrual care in school by risk of rape, with you being depressed because (a) I haven't yet acknowledged a fact so obvious that nobody could disagree with it (that some teenage girls lie) and nobody asked me to do so until now, and (b) I haven't offered a fix for menstruation and rape problems in schools? Our depressions are not even in the same ballpark.

I acknowledge that there are teenage girls who don't tell the truth and this makes it harder for the girls who do tell the truth. What does my acknowledgement add to this debate? Are you feeling less depressed about my posts on this thread now?

You want me to fix schools for you? Well, I can't do that. I have not claimed to have a solution but this does not automatically cancel my expectation that teachers (in general, not just teachers on this thread) and other education and government professionals should come up with solutions. Or are you going to claim "vesuvia can't or won't fix it, so why should teachers?" Have you won the debate now?

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross wrote that "We live in a world where sexual assault and rape is endemic and has been since humankind first walked the earth, has NEVER been eradicated from a single country by politicians, campaigners, police forces or legal systems, and you want to know why teachers can’t solve this issue?"

... but I am expected to have a solution?

The main message I get from this thread is that nobody has a solution.

I'll repeat what I said earlier in this thread: "I sympathise with the difficulty teachers have in dealing with this situation. I agree that managing a class of 30 teenagers is not easy."

I thought when it comes to schools, teachers are supposed to know best. The only thing I claim to know about this thread topic is that girls are not getting a good enough deal in schools when it comes to issues around menstruation, sexual assault and rape. I'm going to challenge people who stay with the unsatisfactory status quo but that doesn't mean that I must fix the problems myself.

I thought this thread in Feminist Chat would be more about feminism and less about seeing girls as a problem.

Vesuvia I can see your frustration and I do share it, it is awful that young girls are at risk of sexual assault and rape and that they cannot go to the loo when they need it.

I do see the problems and I believe that working with pastoral care and parents is the only way forward. There need to be some kind of toilet passes for children which have to be negotiated in advance.

I re-iterate that I would not expect a child of mine to be able to just pop to the loo when they felt like it. In fact I would be quite cross if the school allowed that. Equally, if I had outlined a medical issue for the school which had an impact on the speed with which my child needed the toilet I would be quite cross if my child was denied a loo break. Equally, if a daughter of mine was learning to cope with periods for the first few months (and school was aware) I would be outraged if they denied her to pop out when she discreetly was showing them a pad in her hand.

I would fully expect the school to call me if there was any abuse of the privilege and my children would be suitably told off.

The main message I get from this thread is that nobody has a solution

Agreed, no one has a solution. Other than hire loads of toilet supervisors, but I can’t see the government paying for that.

Sorry for looking for solutions from none teachers. It’s desperation, teachers are juggling. Trying to make judgement calls, most of the time we get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong.
No one is on a power trip.

@FrasierCraneDay no, I'm not being sarcastic.

I've posted upthread about what works for the school where I teach, & as several other posters have pointed out, it only works because we have staffing levels & reduced contact time which are considerably better than conditions in the U.K.

The issue you need to be getting angry about is that it is genuinely impossible to safeguard students out of class in most U.K. schools, & sexual assaults, mostly on girls, are rife, with an average of one rape occurring daily.

Teachers aren't reluctant to let kids out of class because they think it's fun to see teenagers uncomfortable - it's because it causes disruption to everyone's learning, but it's ALSO about safeguarding.

Schools are not, sadly, very safe places.

@WhenSheWasBad

The main message I get from this thread is that nobody has a solution

Agreed, no one has a solution. Other than hire loads of toilet supervisors, but I can’t see the government paying for that.

Sorry for looking for solutions from none teachers. It’s desperation, teachers are juggling. Trying to make judgement calls, most of the time we get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong.
No one is on a power trip.

Agree. Also, great username 😉

@vesuvia

OverTheRubicon wrote - "Well yes, one of the things they had done was to stop pupils from being able to go to the bathroom during class."

That perhaps prevents or postpones a rape but it ignores the menstrual problem.

Why can't a girl attend a school where her risk of rape is minimised and her menstrual problem can be fixed during a class?

The answer seems to be: it's too expensive for the school...

So depressing.

It's not too expensive for the school, it's too expensive for society.

We as a country continually vote for politicians who not only defund the secondary school system, but cut funding right back to the early years and family financial support that would help parents to raise children less likely to have trouble with truanting and assault (aware that some children brought up in loving and privileged homes with high expectations of school behaviour can and will do both of these things, but rates are far far lower). They also don't follow the guidance of the vast majority of teachers about what our children and young adults most need.

If we want to have nice things, we need as a group to vote for them.

It's also true that looking at the recent news about assaults at very expensive schools like Latymer or Westminster, nowhere is immune. It's a societal issue too.

I was only using your ‘depressed’ comment back at you vesuvio

you wrote- I acknowledge that there are teenage girls who don't tell the truth and this makes it harder for the girls who do tell the truth. What does my acknowledgement add to this debate?

It adds to the debate because it is finally an acknowledgement that it’s not just about letting a poor teenage girl just starting her periods, stop herself from having an accident. And because it is just not about that, it shows you that schools and school staff have to juggle lots of issues at once, when making decisions/policies and it would be nice if posters/parents appreciated that and not jump to hyperbole towards articles like the one posted by the OP.
I don’t need challenging thanks and feminism carries more than one side to it on this particular issue.
So yes, be angry at a society that has made it difficult for schools to keep young people both safe and educated or at least appreciate that they are trying their best and that not every situation is cut and dried. Schools, along with young people, are not a one size fits all.

Equally, if a daughter of mine was learning to cope with periods for the first few months

Just want to say that many girls struggle for years with unmanageable/unpredictable periods. I wasn't regular for at least five years, I was frequently ill and released from class.

My friend's daughter has been flooding for three years. She is now 13 and getting worse. By that I mean despite double packing and period pants and going to change each break time where she can reach a toilet, she can still end up sitting in a puddle. She has now been put on the pill without much change, but it's early days.

My friend had spent many months trying to get a doctor to help but was repeatedly told this is all extremely common and totally normal in girls during the first few years of menstruation.

Unfortunately I have found that women who have not experienced periods like this and who don't have anyone in their lives who struggles with periods like that can be rather less sympathetic and understanding than one would hope them to be.

And parents don't necessarily know that even female teachers may not understand the problem, and so may not approach the school to advise them of period issues.

So incidents like this will continue to happen. Given that large numbers of girls are missing school when they are menstruating, every school should have a considered policy on this that supports girls. (Missing school due to periods is a more common reason for girls to be absent than any other, including flu, holidays or truancy.)

On a more immediate level, I'm with a pp in that I would advise a girl in that situation to go to the toilet even if denied permission and explain later. Accept the punishment for defying the teacher, then get a note from their parent to avoid future problems. If they can.

Flooding and just getting used to periods are relatively rare and if a female student asked I'd let them go. It's when they then ask the week after, and the week after that it becomes clear the period wasn't the real reason

Once again assuming you know more about someone's else's body than them is just daft. My periods are irregular but always randomly start with flooding.
When I first got my implant, as a teenager, I bled every single day for about year. Some days just spotting, some days I'd flood.

One solution is single sex schools. But, despite these being proven to be better for girls in terms of academic achievement, are unpopular. Because, in part, boys do better (academically) in a mixed sex school.

But why hadn't she gone at break
How do you know she didn't?

I always let girls go to the toilet. I’ve had girls rush out and one swore at me when I asked where she was going- she apologised when she returned, she was on her period and panicked. No detention needed.

I usually let boys go too, unless I know they’re having me on.

I’ve found it’s better to tell them I trust them, then they are less likely to take the piss (weird pun somewhere in there). I know it can’t be like this at all schools with all SLT.

@vesuvia

ChloeDecker wrote - "What’s depressing is that you are not acknowledging/appreciating the fact that there are teenage girls who don’t tell the truth, which makes it harder for the ones that do and that there are solutions but you don’t seem to be happy with them or coming up with your own vesuvia"

Are you seriously trying compare, in some weird "depression olympics", my being depressed that girls are obstructed in their menstrual care in school by risk of rape, with you being depressed because (a) I haven't yet acknowledged a fact so obvious that nobody could disagree with it (that some teenage girls lie) and nobody asked me to do so until now, and (b) I haven't offered a fix for menstruation and rape problems in schools? Our depressions are not even in the same ballpark.

I acknowledge that there are teenage girls who don't tell the truth and this makes it harder for the girls who do tell the truth. What does my acknowledgement add to this debate? Are you feeling less depressed about my posts on this thread now?

You want me to fix schools for you? Well, I can't do that. I have not claimed to have a solution but this does not automatically cancel my expectation that teachers (in general, not just teachers on this thread) and other education and government professionals should come up with solutions. Or are you going to claim "vesuvia can't or won't fix it, so why should teachers?" Have you won the debate now?

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross wrote that "We live in a world where sexual assault and rape is endemic and has been since humankind first walked the earth, has NEVER been eradicated from a single country by politicians, campaigners, police forces or legal systems, and you want to know why teachers can’t solve this issue?"

... but I am expected to have a solution?

The main message I get from this thread is that nobody has a solution.

I'll repeat what I said earlier in this thread: "I sympathise with the difficulty teachers have in dealing with this situation. I agree that managing a class of 30 teenagers is not easy."

I thought when it comes to schools, teachers are supposed to know best. The only thing I claim to know about this thread topic is that girls are not getting a good enough deal in schools when it comes to issues around menstruation, sexual assault and rape. I'm going to challenge people who stay with the unsatisfactory status quo but that doesn't mean that I must fix the problems myself.

I thought this thread in Feminist Chat would be more about feminism and less about seeing girls as a problem.

I feel the same. I was that girl who flooded without notice, I was that girl let down by teachers and not supported in dealing with my menstrual issues. Girls get a shit deal when it comes to period support.

Surely the solution is to have an individual loo in each classroom? Much cheaper than having full-time staff employed to escort children to the toilet.

Yes there would be an initial budget hit, but then schools seem to be able to find the money to refit all the loos to "gender neutral" over the summer term, despite children of both sexes not liking it, and despite the fact it makes the sexual assault and harassment of girls more likely.

Absolutely no reason why all new-build schools couldn't have this by default.

@ArabellaScott

If this is such a tricky area it sounds like schools need to apply themselves to find a way to tackle it.

Girls can't be held from going to the toilet when they need to.

If a child/YP is so desperate to skive they will make up a story then it's not really toilets that's the issue, is it? Perhaps more support is needed.

This is so patronising. Do you not think schools are already applying themselves? Behaviour is never an issue you ‘fix’, because, you know.. more kids each year to year seven! It’s not as if schools enjoy disruptive behaviour 🤷‍♀️

Once again assuming you know more about someone's else's body than them is just daft. My periods are irregular but always randomly start with flooding.

No assumptions at all. I also experience flooding yet am a teacher and have to cope. Period pants have been a revelation and give me enough time to finish a lesson then deal with it. As stated above, I'd let a female student go. I'd be reluctant but I'd let them. We also have a pass system for students that require it
No medical evidence needed, just a call to the pastoral team. Approx 50% of these are "because my mum said". So they aren't a perfect solution.

I think the majority of periods are manageable within the break and lunch times at school. There are approx 15 girls in each class I teach. It would be unusual for more than one per lesson to ask.

I really think some of you have no idea what secondary schools are like now.

Given that large numbers of girls are missing school when they are menstruating, every school should have a considered policy on this that supports girls.

This I agree with and yes, schools do mention this in their policies re:toilets and for the past year or so, also provide free sanitary pads to all girls as well. This was a wonderful campaign and is a huge step forward in period poverty or even just getting caught short. Schools are not the ‘enemy’ as some a re claiming on here.

I was also that teen who had an accident with flooding at school and visibly stained my clothes but I didn’t want to get up in front of the class and have everyone watch me go out-teacher was fantastic afterwards.
Until you have actually been staff in schools and seen for yourself what actually happens, however, you don’t appreciate the disruption to lessons asking to go to the toilet is, not least because they miss things and it stops the lesson (and can do so repeatedly) and can be an excuse for them to misbehave.
I’ll just say again that I do let pupils go to the toilet (but only one at a time, which some parents do complain about), and yes it does disrupt lessons, yes I have had pupils (including girls) who lied and caused problems that I had to sort afterwards and yes plenty of pupils including girls, use it as an excuse just to get out of doing a task or something they find boring. It’s almost always at the start of the task that they ask-it’s like clockwork!).

I don’t know if any schools are spending money on gender neutral toilet refits but I guess some are of being mentioned on here but is certainly not nationwide. Our staff toilets haven’t been fixed/done up ever due to no funding (the pupils’ toilets always come first) and I have been at the school since 2012. The doors are so wonky that they used to hit/squeeze past my pregnant bump every time.

We have 5 mins between every lesson that pupils can go to the toilet in including another 5 minutes between Form Time and the first lesson, we also have break and lunchtimes which gives pupils 6 opportunities throughout a 7 hour day for toilet trips without needing to ask to go in a lesson. During these times, a member of staff is nearby to help with any issues on things, with break duty etc. It is therefore not unreasonable to ever ask if a pupil can go during these opportunities and I feel for the Headteacher in the OP’s article, as well as girls who have accidents or want to avoid them in school. It’s not an either or situation to be in, in this debate. I do, however, find it interesting how a lot of people think pupils have it so bad at school.

5 minutes wasn't enough to cross my old school and get to the toilet, let alone clean up and get to my next lesson. And its not pupils who have it bad so much as girls who are menstruating, who are getting mixed up with pupils who are causing trouble. They are not the same group.

And its not pupils who have it bad so much as girls who are menstruating, who are getting mixed up with pupils who are causing trouble. They are not the same group

So badly behaved girls don’t menstruate. Or lie about menstruating to get out of lessons. Sometimes they are the same group.

Pretty much all teachers on here have said they would allow a girl if she was on her period.
If she has extremely heavy periods that require clean up. Ask for a toilet pass.

Teachers are just asking for some understanding of the tricky balancing act we have in schools.

But why hadn't she gone at break

When I was at school once, I did go on a break. And my period had come on suddenly. So I had to go to the office to ask for a towel, as I had none. And then, I had to wait in the office queue. Almost as soon as I got the towel, the bell went. I got a detention for being late to class because I went back to the toilets beforehand. Had I gone to lesson, there was a chance my teacher wouldn't have let me go because "You just had break", so I chose to be late instead.
You just can't win sometimes.

I find it interesting people here are mentioning multiple girls asking to go at once. Teachers have no idea if their need is genuine, but say they can only go one at a time. Surely if schools are allowing so many sexual assaults to happen on premises it would be better to let girls go together for a buddy system. If it's girls naughty behaviour (smoking, vandalism) that worries people, surely you punish that afterwards. Or don't girls get the benefit of innocent until proven guilty?

I also experience flooding yet am a teacher and have to cope. Period pants have been a revelation and give me enough time to finish a lesson then deal with it

Just out of curiosity do you pay for those or are these period pants provided for free by the school?