Boris Johnson in marrying as a "Catholic" has annulled his previous marriages and delegitimesed his children - these are the ethics of our current prime minister

[stumbledin]

On one level I dont care either way about this but thought it strange who could get married in a Catholic ceremony. But as ever our resourceful PM has "negotiated" a path that suits him - and insults his formes wives and their children. As someone on facebook said, this is how Etonians learn to rule the world! What an utter w*er!!

" ... Catholic canon law does not permit the marriage of a divorcee whose former spouse is still alive.

However, the church confirmed that as neither his six-year first marriage to Allegra Mostyn-Owen, nor his second 27-year marriage to Marina Wheeler were Catholic ceremonies they are not recognised in the eyes of the church.

... In order to marry in a Catholic church, Mr Johnson could have had his two previous marriages recognised as annulled.

(or) ... his previous marriages, for which he would have required special dispensation from the Catholic church, those marriages would have "had a lack of canonical form" and could therefore be considered invalid. ... "

Interestingly these comments are from a Telegraph article late yesterday www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/29/boris-wedding-did-prime-minister-marry-carrie-symonds-catholic/ which has now disappeared and been replaced with this much less questioning article www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/30/boris-johnson-carrie-symonds-catholic-church-wedding-married/

Wonder if some Telegraph Tory leaders got in touch and said dont be so mean!

As they say, one rule for the rich, one rule for the poor.

@HowamIalmost50

As a (now non practising) Catholic I was always led to believe that the RC church recognised marriage in other Christian churches but not civil ceremonies.

I think this situation with Bojo is a complete farce and so hypocritical of the church and the couple!

It would be hypocritical of the church to apply different rules to Johnson.

Whether it's hypocritical of him to make vows to Carrie now? Who knows. Would you object to a registry office marrying them?

@LibertyMole

But society allows do-overs. He can have as many civil marriages as he likes. What is the issue?

No, in general society requires acknowledgement of what has happened previously. A divorce is a legal end, not a pretence that something never happened or was less important. The Conservative party in particular hasn't taken kindly to the kind of do over where men try to deny paternity.

If/when they get divorced, the Catholic Church wouldn't allow them a second Catholic wedding, so do overs aren't policy there either.

Religion is separate to law though.

His marriages and children are still recognised under British law.

The church’s opinion doesn’t affect that legal status.

I am catholic and my dh has been previously married in a non-catholic church. He still needed a legal divorce before we could marry, and the fact we were able to marry in a catholic church makes absolutely no difference to the legitimacy of his kids.

‘No, in general society requires acknowledgement of what has happened previously. A divorce is a legal end, not a pretence that something never happened or was less important.’

No. Society requires civil annulment or divorce to end a marriage.

The Catholic Church requires evidence of civil annulment or divorce and additional evidence before it declares a marriage invalid.

‘If/when they get divorced, the Catholic Church wouldn't allow them a second Catholic wedding, so do overs aren't policy there either.’

You don’t know that. The church may find grounds to annul this marriage.

Society requires civil annulment or divorce to end a marriage.

No, you are confusing two separate things.

An annulment says that the marriage is void because it was never legally valid.

www.gov.uk/how-to-annul-marriage

A divorce recognises that a marriage took place and legally ends it.

I would be surprised if the Catholic Church annulled this marriage. Two adult, baptised Catholics with at least one Catholic child.

They also would open themselves up to a massive discussion and open the floodgates for every legally (under civil law) divorced Catholic to get an annulment.

@LibertyMole I am not wishing death upon Mr Johnson and I trust you are not either. However, given life expectancy, he could easily live another 30 years. Preferably in a prison cell, though that is unlikely to happen.

His flip flopping between religions on the whim of his dick fits in perfectly with his politics.

@FatCatThinCat

I think this reflects really badly on the catholic church. I couldn't get remarried in the catholic church despite fleeing from my first marriage due to violence, and yet soeone whose multiple marriages fail because he keeps sticking his dick in people he's not married to can. Everyone knows his vows mean nothing to him and yet there he is churning them out in our place of worship making a mockery of our faith. Shame on whoever took the decision to allow this.

This! His behaviour has been utterly insulting to the Catholic faith. And as for a pp suggesting he has come back to Catholicism through Carrie oh ffs what a joke!! That’s the laugh of the day!

I am not confusing them MerryMouse. Nobody denies that a marriage annulled through a civil process took place.

‘I would be surprised if the Catholic Church annulled this marriage. Two adult, baptised Catholics with at least one Catholic child.’

Doesn’t he have American citizenship though? 50% of all Catholic annulments are done in the USA, so he might find it easier to get through their priests than ours.

Lack of non-cannical forms annulments aren't just for the rich - they're granted all the time; I received one myself.

He hasn't delegitimised his children; secular law still recognises these past marriages.

Is there even a benefit to legitimising children? The registry office gave me a form to legitimise mine and I forgot to fill it in.

‘@LibertyMole I am not wishing death upon Mr Johnson and I trust you are not either. However, given life expectancy, he could easily live another 30 years. Preferably in a prison cell, though that is unlikely to happen.’

I have just looked up his age. I thought he was about 15 years older than he actually is!

‘Society requires civil annulment or divorce to end a marriage.’

‘No, you are confusing two separate things.’

First sentence of first paragraph of your link:

‘Annulment (sometimes known as ‘nullity’) is a different way of ending a marriage.’

‘Annulment (sometimes known as ‘nullity’) is a different way of ending a marriage.’

On the basis that specific circumstances make the marriage void e.g. one of the parties was still married to somebody else. That is not the same as a divorce.

Yes. Annulment and divorce are different things.

I had a vague memory of an American politician, a member of the Kennedy dynasty, doing a nasty trick involving annulment, and I found a news story about it. After he and his non-Catholic first wife got divorced, he obtained an annulment without telling her, so he could be married again in church. (When she found out, she protested, and the church apparently cancelled the annulment.)
content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1634956,00.html

Getting an annulment from the Catholic Church doesn't de-legitimise children.

If I were a Catholic priest I might be rather suspicious of Boris' intent or at least ability to follow through, but annulment says nothing about the legal stats of previous marriages, children that came out of them, and it doesn't absolve the person from legal or moral responsibilities that they have due to entering in those marriages, such as spousal support. It's disingenuous to imply it does.

Wrt the Kennedy annulment story - the party seeking a Catholic annulment must notify the other party that he or she is going to file a petition for annulment. The ex-spouse's participation is encouraged but not required in the Catholic annulment process. The party who did not participate in the annulment process can appeal, as Sheila Rauch did. All diocesan decisions are automatically sent to the Roman Rota for examination before the final decision is granted. Parties denied an annulment in their home diocese can also appeal. The process is designed to include a 'devil's advocate' dynamic, with the marriage itself represented as an entity.

That Time article is loaded with innuendo and short on fact.
"With divorce strictly prohibited in Catholicism..."
Nope, not so.
Catholics can divorce. In fact, no annulment process goes ahead unless the couple are already divorced.

Catholic annulment and civil divorce are completely different things.

There is civil annulment in some legal systems but that is also completely different.

Doesn’t he have American citizenship though? 50% of all Catholic annulments are done in the USA, so he might find it easier to get through their priests than ours.

No, you have to get your annulment in the diocese in which you live. It's a matter of the religious court's jurisdiction, as in civil courts. Your legal citizenship has nothing to do with it. You might even have got married in another diocese, even one in a different country, but the place where you file for an annulment is the one where you are living. This gives the ex-spouse more of a chance to participate, with familiar language, ease of travel for interviews, etc.

As a (now non practising) Catholic I was always led to believe that the RC church recognised marriage in other Christian churches but not civil ceremonies.

All marriages have a civil component, whether that takes place inside the church or at a registry office. Hence civil divorce, which happens whether a couple married in a church including a RC church, or at a registry office. The RC church takes the circumstances of all previous marriages into account if either party to a previous marriages wishes to subsequently marry in a RC church. This includes civil marriages.

The RC church sees all marriage between men and women as a pillar of society, a fundamental good, and absolutely necessary for the welfare of children, involving parents who are a man and a woman. Hence the RC church's opposition to gay marriage or gay civil partnership.

Doesn’t he have American citizenship though? 50% of all Catholic annulments are done in the USA, so he might find it easier to get through their priests than ours

I don't now for certain, but he may have had to give it up- USA has a law that states no citizen can hold foreign office. I don't know the ins and outs of it and any exclusions, though.

@mathanxiety

As a (now non practising) Catholic I was always led to believe that the RC church recognised marriage in other Christian churches but not civil ceremonies.

All marriages have a civil component, whether that takes place inside the church or at a registry office. Hence civil divorce, which happens whether a couple married in a church including a RC church, or at a registry office. The RC church takes the circumstances of all previous marriages into account if either party to a previous marriages wishes to subsequently marry in a RC church. This includes civil marriages.

The RC church sees all marriage between men and women as a pillar of society, a fundamental good, and absolutely necessary for the welfare of children, involving parents who are a man and a woman. Hence the RC church's opposition to gay marriage or gay civil partnership.

That last bit pisses me off. Absolutely fine if a religion wants to exclude same sex couples from their marriage rights. I don't agree with it, but I will agree they have the right to refuse to perform or recognise SSM. They shouldn't have a say in the civil part, however.