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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.

999 replies

Fallingirl · 27/05/2021 21:39

Posie is planning to re-build the women’s sector, starting with crowd funding for a women-only refuge.

OP posts:
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18
OhHolyJesus · 31/05/2021 23:11

"Can ask c** guest to leave if they cannot follow the expectations"

I can imagine it too Tinsel. The expectations involve the all gas lighting possible and the denial of reality.

I don't want to imagine it but I can. Then I imagine Posie's option and I reach for my bank card.

CharlieParley · 31/05/2021 23:29

@SapphosRock

Happy to share it again Quaggers. Just so people can see exactly what they are donating their money to.

Good ethos for a refuge?

What Posie is expressing here is a mainstream feminist view, albeit a liberal/libertarian one.

Here is the quote again:

》The point is some women recognise signs of abuse, some don't. Some listen to their intuition and some don't. And I am a firm believer in you are only treated in the ways that you allow.《(Posie Parker)

In the mid-nineties, several liberal feminists published books denouncing the radical feminist analysis of male violence as systemic discrimination against women and girls. They declared that this "victim feminism", as they called it, denied individual women their agency and unfairly demonised men. Influenced by neoliberalist ideas they claimed that the radical feminist analysis of male violence infantilised women and portrayed them as weak victims in need of protection when they should instead be empowered to take responsibility for their own safety (alongside taking responsibility for their own sexual satisfaction and their own personal fulfilment and their own career success and so on).

This backlash against practically all of left-wing feminism (socialist and Marxist feminists, radical feminists, lesbian separatists) as victim feminism was much acclaimed in the press for allowing them to cast feminists employing a class-based analysis as the man-haters the male-dominated press had always known they were. So they celebrated the new power feminism. Every choice a woman makes is a feminist choice and we can choose to refuse to be a victim. And have fun while we're at it. And this way of thinking gained traction until it became firmly entrenched as mainstream feminism.

Of course, that happened because it was allowed to happen. This version of feminism is no threat to the patriarchy as it denied that the patriarchy a) really existed and b) actually did anything to women as a class at all because c) victimhood is psychological, not systemic so d) victimhood is therefore weakness and e) power feminism is all about being strong and taking charge of your own destiny. No victims here. Much of the discourse btw stopped just shy of victim blaming, but in some cases it strayed right into it.

Despite that this much welcomed interpretation of feminism continues to underpin liberal feminism today. It's all about individual women getting ahead within the system while maintaining the status quo.

This way of thinking has permeated throughout women's rights organisations across the Western world. It led to Nordic countries embracing gender-neutral policy making (whose negative impact on women and girls is now finally being noticed) and to UK politicians famously describing sexual violence perpetrated predominantly by boys predominantly against girls in our schools as peer-on-peer violence.

Back to the quote then. So first of all, Posie is not expressing an extremist view here in my view but a commonplace place one pushed for over 20 years by the now dominant strand of feminism - liberal feminism.

Secondly, from a radical feminist point of view, casting male violence against females as merely individual-on-individual violence and portraying victimhood as purely psychological and not systemic is clearly wrong. However, Posie is specifically talking here about domestic abuse and its female victims.

And we now have substantial amounts of research, both quantitative and qualitative, which shows that some women are indeed victimised over and over again and that there are identifiable reasons for that.

And with those reasons came solutions, such as the Freedom Program, which teaches victimised women to recognise signs of abuse and gives them the tools they need to change the patterns of their behaviour to avoid further or future abuse.

A more nuanced view than Posie's recognises that systemic violence against women and girls is enabled in a patriarchal society. And that we as a class are neither responsible nor at fault for being victimised in this way. And it also recognises that repeated abuse has a traumatic effect on some individual women and girls that leads to them internalising patterns of behaviour that allow an abuser to take advantage.

As radical feminists who seek to protect women and girls from male violence we therefore seek to both change the system that oppresses us as a class and to teach individual women and girls how to recognise abuse so they can to protect themselves against it as long as the oppressive system persists.

Thirdly, talking about "allowing" oneself to be abused because one does not recognise signs of abuse and/or ignore one's instincts does not equate to saying that the female victim is to blame for being abused. The blame lies with the abuser. Posie's view, shared by many, though is that some women will recognise the signs and will listen to their instincts and walk away before an abuser gets the chance. And others don't. Posie's wording does not suggest that these women are choosing to not recognise the signs and choosing to ignore their instincts but that they are unable to do what other women can. What Posie believes she can.

Of course, little was known about the psychological side of abuse, and about coercive control and its insidious effect on victims in the 90s. From today's perspective it seems bonkers to claim that every woman can choose to refuse to be a victim and that's all there is to it. We now know that there is far more to it than that and that many cannot withstand the psychological damage inflicted by an abuser without outside help. We also know that we can learn to help ourselves and that we can help others.

And that is what Posie is attempting to do. To help those she believes cannot help themselves. Even if she firmly and clearly believes that she'd never be in that position.

Whatever you may think of her otherwise, this is no more and no less than what motivates many other women who work in the VAWG sector - to help women less fortunate than themselves.

NiceGerbil · 31/05/2021 23:49

This is still going?!

Woman says hey I'm gonna do this. Donate if you like!

The time spent on ?. Saying she's a 'baddie'.

Well some readers will agree she's a baddie and some won't.

The massive investment in trying to argue that she's definitely a baddie. To me the arguments are unconvincing.

And tbh. I've disagreed with her an awful lot when she was on here. I also believe she is sincere and honest when it comes to this issue.

Because you know. Women are people and have a variety of views and opinions and some people may agree with some and not others.

Because it's not actually normal to adhere to every single thing that is associated with one political side or whatever.

She's really hated isn't she. Outspoken, uncompromising, not afraid, not cowed. Doesn't look how women who support women's rights are supposed to look. I think that is particularly enraging for some. A great publicist. Etc etc

Donate/ don't donate. Easy.

TheShadowyFeminist · 01/06/2021 00:03

@OhHolyJesus

I can't remember where this came from, I think it was from here some years ago, so I'm sorry that I can't clarify whether it was a refuge or a specialised service or if it was in England or Scotland.

This is handwritten advice for how to deal with complaints from a 'service user'.

If anyone recognised it please do help with the background. I knew at the time I should save it.

My memory is a bit hazy but I'm sure this was an American refuge but it was 1st posted around the time that the trans inclusion guide from Forth Valley Rape Crisis was exposed. IIRC the trans inclusion guide had similar sentiments & this was posted on twitter showing where the guide can lead/ how that 're-education' leads when it affects women who need female only provision.

I could be wrong but I think this was definitely US or Canadian.

SapphosRock · 01/06/2021 05:42

The point is some women recognise signs of abuse, some don't. Some listen to their intuition and some don't. And I am a firm believer in you are only treated in the ways that you allow.《(Posie Parker)

TinselAngel do you think this is an appropriate response to a trans widow? They didn't listen to their intuition? They allowed the gaslighting to happen?
I think it's appalling and I'm amazed that people on this thread who are so supportive of trans widows are not only willing to overlook it, they are actively donating money to the person who said it.

Erikrie · 01/06/2021 06:31

11% of target met so far. 🎉🎊

Jeanhatchet · 01/06/2021 07:10

@CharlieParley The feminist analysis you provide is excellent. Yes within that framework the quote could be given context. However .... it didn't have that context. It was from an exchange with Gail Dines where both Posie and another woman espoused a number of views which shocked many women on the thread because they were so clearly saying that they had never experienced abuse because they were "better than that". I paraphrase. But there was zero analysis attached. It was just neat, unadulterated victim blaming. We all saw it.

Honestly - the gymnastics performed to excuse appalling statements or political choices by Kellie Jay Keen Minshull never fails to astound. I once performed these tricks of mental magic myself. But you know sometimes (always actually ..to give her some credit ...she always says what she thinks) .... what she says is what she really means. No need to give it context. Men with guns going into single sex spaces. Tick. Muslim girls wearing hijab are #disgusting. Tick. "Women who call themselves men should be sterilised". Tick. Abused women allow it. Tick. "There are pockets of Bradford where the culture is not British. Like many ex Pat communities they hold onto their culture rather tightly. There was an all boys school that was 99.9% Pakistani Muslim. Awful place for women." "4.4% of the population are Muslim. Why should anyone have time off school. This is not a Muslim country." Tick. Appearing on the podcast of a white supremacist. Tick. It is what it is. What you see is what you get. She doesn't need a spin doctor. But if she does she should interview for one on Mumsnet.

OhHolyJesus · 01/06/2021 07:34

Thanks Shadow, that's really useful and makes sense.

Screenshots should allow notes or citations!

SapphosRock · 01/06/2021 07:38

Honestly - the gymnastics performed to excuse appalling statements or political choices by Kellie Jay Keen Minshull never fails to astound.

Indeed. If a trans girl was competing against the girls on an American school sports team the posters on this board would be all over it. But encouraging men to take guns into the girls toilets in USA schools? Oh it's not relevant, it's the USA, move along now, nothing to see here.

It's quite frankly embarrassing and yes Ekrie I'm looking at you.

Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.
Erikrie · 01/06/2021 07:39

This is handwritten advice for how to deal with complaints from a 'service user'

Gosh that's really horrible gaslighting guidance. So upsetting. Women who are already traumatised having to deal with this. 😡

SapphosRock · 01/06/2021 07:47

@Erikrie

This is handwritten advice for how to deal with complaints from a 'service user'

Gosh that's really horrible gaslighting guidance. So upsetting. Women who are already traumatised having to deal with this. 😡

But this 'advice' is fine right? Absolutely fine. Nothing to see here. Move along now.

The point is some women recognise signs of abuse, some don't. Some listen to their intuition and some don't. And I am a firm believer in you are only treated in the ways that you allow.

(Posie Parker)

somethinginoffensive · 01/06/2021 07:49

Okay, we get it, Posie is beyond the pale and we must not work with her.

We should work with the women currently in the sector who have actually welcomed men in. Oh.

sanluca · 01/06/2021 07:54

Wonder why some people welcome women fighting amongst themselves and come her to fan the flames....

SapphosRock · 01/06/2021 07:56

Nice bit of victim blaming there somethinginoffensive - is Karen Ingala Smith really 'welcoming the men in?'

But aside from that yes, you're spot on.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/06/2021 07:58

@somethinginoffensive

Okay, we get it, Posie is beyond the pale and we must not work with her.

We should work with the women currently in the sector who have actually welcomed men in. Oh.

This! For the umpteenth time, the only reason we’re in the ludicrous position of having to fundraise for a women (of the female adult human kind) only refuge is because the women currently running the sector were unable (or in some cases) unwilling to stop its capture by the TWAW brigade. I get that there are complex reasons for that mostly linked to funding but we are where we are
Erikrie · 01/06/2021 08:01

It's quite frankly embarrassing and yes Ekrie I'm looking at you.

If you want to start a thread about toilets go ahead and do so Sapphos. Rather than derailing this one. Jumping on the back of Jean Hatchets post isn't going to win you any brownie points is it. It's well known that there's no love lost between them and that is very apparent in her words. It pretty much always has been.

Anyone who tries to sabotage a woman's efforts to raise money for a SINGLE SEX service is not someone worth listening to imo. Whoever they claim to be and whatever they claim to stand for.

And judging by how well the fundraiser for a single sex service is going, I'm glad to see that your efforts are having the opposite effect to what you were hoping for. ☺️

Erikrie · 01/06/2021 08:04

But this 'advice' is fine right? Absolutely fine. Nothing to see here. Move along now.

No Sapphos. Gaslighting women into accepting this kind of abuse is not fine.

SapphosRock · 01/06/2021 08:07

For those who don't know, this is an example of how existing women in the women's services sector are 'letting the men in'.

kareningalasmith.com/2020/07/08/trauma-informed-services-for-women-subjected-to-mens-violence-must-be-single-sex-services/

And yes I think we should be supporting these women to overcome the obstacles they are facing rather them writing them off as a lost cause and giving money to PP.

somethinginoffensive · 01/06/2021 08:07

I literally don't know why you think I am victim blaming Sappho. I was just making the point that women's organisations who already include men aren't much use to women who need single-sex spaces.

Erikrie · 01/06/2021 08:09

I literally don't know why you think I am victim blaming Sappho. I was just making the point that women's organisations who already include men aren't much use to women who need single-sex spaces.

Indeed.

Erikrie · 01/06/2021 08:12

And yes I think we should be supporting these women to overcome the obstacles they are facing rather them writing them off as a lost cause and giving money to PP.

We? We're not a hive mind and nor do we have a shared bank account. You can support these women. Others can support different projects. Some people do both.

somethinginoffensive · 01/06/2021 08:13

And yes I think we should be supporting these women to overcome the obstacles they are facing rather them writing them off as a lost cause and giving money to PP.

We can do both.

TheShadowyFeminist · 01/06/2021 08:17

This thread is beyond tedious at this point & for all the effort of posting repetitive comments on the well worn criticism of posie, all it's achieved is to fuel the fundraiser & to shine a light on a system that's broken with some women working within it bizarrely obsessed with circling wagons around that broken system.

Fury at posie for whatever reason is pointless. Genuinely. You convince no one of your sincerity & you're just fuelling the fundraisers you claim to be so vehemently opposed to. I can't fathom it at all.

I'll predict more quotes, repetitive accusations & smears of posters by proxy for not taking those obsessed with posie who don't engage directly with her on a platform she can answer back on seriously.

Keep it up - there's at least 170+ posts left to fill before the thread hits 1k & the fundraiser is getting boosted because of the petty obsessive nature of those posting endlessly about posie.

Hmm
Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/06/2021 08:24

Can anyone cite anyone other than the fab Karen ingala smith as a woman who is running a service openly stating they are for women of the adult human female kind only?

Floisme · 01/06/2021 08:29

Speaking strictly for me, I always try and support causes, not the personality behind them. If a celebrity I dislike is raising money for Breast Cancer, I don't refuse to donate because Oh it's her and I can't stand her.

We appear to have a problem in the VAWG sector, a problem that people working on the inside are unable to speak out about for fear of reprisals. A woman has put her head over the parapet, spoken up and is raising money to tackle the problem. As far as I'm aware nobody else is doing this.

So unless someone has evidence that the money raised is going to be blown at the hairdressers, then for now, that is good enough for me.

By the same token, I'm really disappointed to see Jeanhatchet actively trying to undermine the work of another fundraiser, but that wouldn't stop me donating towards Jean's next project if I believed in it. And equally if Sappho decides to try and raise money for a women's cafe I would consider supporting that too. Because it's the cause that counts, not the personality.

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